raise the flop or turn

You're checking to call aren't you?

i hear this shanetrain guy is a top 10 PLO/PLO8 player in the world, and wins triple crowns and stuff, should prolly listen to him

yeah, i see what your saying and this is why i think it could be a fold on the river. dont know that im good enough to fold on a blank river, but the fact that the Q does actually fill some hands that were bluffing the flop and turn, like hands with QQ and JT, i thought it could be a fold. a set a fair amount of the time and then a filled bluff some of the time as well.

i dont love a small bet on the river, i think a good player will raise that bet a lot with air. not sure though. i guess it could be a fold, thanks for the thoughts

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

Flat pre is ok... could easily make a case for folding tho if villain is good.

Flop and turn are hugely dependent on villain... need some reads plz. Against some I'd c/r flop if they're rly stationy or will just spazz out with AA or a random worse 2pr. Against others who are going to barrel a lot (which is this guy as it turns out) I'll flat and c/r a lot of turns (also doing this for a lil pot control). As played on flop, turn can actually be a fold vs a decent amount of people, particularly more passive players that are just going to try to get to showdown cheap with worse than AK (something like A2, K8, K2, w/e), and therefore are only betting AK or sets... but I'd usually peel one more. Riv is a fold vs like 92.38% of players.

edit: you could throw out a small bet and fold to a raise on riv too btw.

i can reraise preflop or fold as shanetrain suggested but i dont think a call is terrible.

in any case, i think a check raise on the turn is OK, but i figured i was either way ahead or way behind on the turn, and i figured if he bluffs the turn hes going to bluff the river a lot. given that board i think that if im good, he has at most 6 outs, which is why i just called. if he has any idea what hes doin he folds all of his hands with 6 outs or less but bluffs nearly any other card on the river.

 

Originally Posted by JokersOnYou

gotta play this hand much more aggressive.....here's what I suggest:

Re-raise preflop, take control of the hand. The hand then needs to be check-raised, preferably on the turn if you can get another bet out of him. If you do not have a great read on him, then check-raise the flop. Check-calling is ok on the flop, but check-calling the turn bet is a mistake. Take the hand down there.

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

...c/r'ing this turn seems pretty awful to me

explain?

c/r the turn would be AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWFULlllllllll

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

Well tell me this first... are you advocating c/r/c on the turn? If so, why, or more specifically, what do you think villain's get-it-in range is on the turn?

You are giving the villain far too much credit for a big hand. His small raise in first position is weak, and rarely shows up with a big hand (AA, KK), in which you have one of each card to help better prove that. His flop bet is weak too, and your top two pair is almost always good here. OP played it coy and opted to give another card to the villian. The turn peels an ace, and he again fires another weak bet. You have to assume that you still have the best hand as well, a check raise will put most of the remaining chips in the middle. Obviously you cannot fold after you check raise. Check calling the turn is soo weak, I don't understand how that can be a profitable play. With an opportunity to get the majority of your remaining chips in the middle with a pot that has already passed 12k, you have to take it. He has more than enough fold equity to make this the right play.

Villain's get-it-in range is merely a set, or a worse 2 pair. He does not have the right odds to call with a wrap (qj10x), but will certainly call if that ace has given him two pair. A set is possible, but assuming it is not AA or KK, and judging by his 3 weak bets, it would be wrong to assume it is 2s or 8s.

And whoever said you are good PLO/PL8 player? I fail to see the stats to back that up...

 

Originally Posted by shanetrain22

We were having a friendly conversation about a hand... and then you randomly start insulting me? Seems real.

GL OP.

Ha, how quickly you crumble like a little girl. I'm just stating the facts here. And you still haven't agreed/disagreed with my post?

lol dude, relax. a few things i disagree with in your post:

1) he could easily have AA or KK with a preflop raise in early position.

2) "obviously you cannot fold if you checkraise" what am i beating?

3) "check calling is soo weak". isnt weak what we are going for in some spots?

4) i have "fold equity"? think you need to look that term up before using it. im assuming your not saying a check/raise is a bluff

 

Originally Posted by JokersOnYou

Ha, how quickly you crumble like a little girl. I'm just stating the facts here. And you still haven't agreed/disagreed with my post?

fair. just thought it was the best way to get the max value against a guy who was playing a lotta hands and was capable of bluffs on multiple streets. i think ppl play hands so straighforwardly generally in PLO that he thought i would never have the hand i had, and would take multiple stabs at it. i think if turn came any other card, im prob check raising and getting value outta a lot more hands i think when he turns a draw or something. but then the A came and it was feasible he had top set, and without big draws out there, i figured a check raise wouldnt get much value or i could in fact be beat

 

Originally Posted by orgnalsooners

Im leading the flop or c/r the flop... I hate ck calling, ck calling, & then guessing wtf they have when a scare card hits river b/c in plo it always does.

Fold or 3bet preflop. The turn makes it tempting but it's a fold, easy river fold. I can see you are a seasoned PLO player but I just think the hand is played so passively especially in a 6macks PLO tournament. I don't like playing hands like this in PLO unless I can rep something monsterish by taking control of the action. By calling all streets it just looks super weak and you have no idea where you are at in the hand.

Ac on the turn would be an interesting card tho ;-)

Gl tomorrow

Fold pre- OOP, call if IP. Being OOP in PLO is like playing with a card or two less than your opponent.

Since you called, check-raise flop -- if he has KK then ul you - move on and just fire up another $500 plo tourney with a $350K guarantee. His range is AAxx down to 2345ds, I mean, this is friggin' plo after all, so you're doing okay with top two on a dry board. Leading is okay but gets no value from the huge majority of hands he whiffs with and then c-bets.

Since you c/c'd the flop -- lead the turn, now you have to find out if villain has AA or not. If he pops you big you should give up and give credit for AA/KK or at the very worst the QJT run-down. Only thing you'd hate to get raised with is another AK, but at least you can fold after setting your own price and therefore have more chips left and no tough decision on the river. If he just calls your turn bet (which does NOT have to be for pot, but maybe 2/3rds or so would be best with no flush draws out) then evaluate river. You'll be c/c'ing a lot of rivers, but probably c/f'ing this one to a big bet.

Since you c/c'd the turn -- set your own price on the river. Being OOP in PLO is not entirely without advantages. Lead for 5-6K and fold to a shove. He knows you won't check JT there so your check allows him to put max pressure on. You yourself could easily have JT and your "call-me" lead prevents him from making plays most of the time.

Cliff notes: Fold pre-.

I don't see how you aren't c/r flop...on the river, I prob fold...but I don't see how I ever see that river after I c/r flop...

 

Originally Posted by MattyDaCobra

Cliff notes: Fold pre-.

I don't see why you are folding double suited hands like this unless you are playing tight but OOP is def a good reason to fold pre...I prob take a flop tho if I think villain is par or below...if I feel as tho he is solid then I do fold pre...

Yeah. I just have a problem folding pre in 6max PLO :). As I think about it, I dont mind a pot 3bet preflop. If he shoves, its almost 100% AAxx and I'd fold. Who knows, the disciplined thing is definitely to just muck the hand pre.

 

Originally Posted by MattyDaCobra

Fold pre- OOP, call if IP. Being OOP in PLO is like playing with a card or two less than your opponent.

Yeah..my plan was to check raise a lot of turn cards. Its certainly a good flop for me against his range, I just think there are a lot of turn cards where I get a good amount of value out of a turn checkraise. But when the A comes, its weirdly not a great time to checkraise bc there arent a whole lot of hands he calls with if I checkraise and he actually could have gotten there too.

 

Originally Posted by m_hawk_1

I don't know a bunch about PLO, but I would c/r this flop all day. It's a pretty great flop for us against his range, but pretty much 100% of turn cards leave us guessing and OOP.

lol, i posted the hand exactly because i wasnt sure if i played it right and was looking for some discussion. honestly, if he shows me his hand, i would NOT have played it any differently. 2 outs on flop and 6 on the turn. a check/raise just gets him to fold a hand that he seemed likely to bluff.

that being said, he could have had a lot of different hands there, so i thought maybe it wasnt played right. it seems like a lot of people are saying to check raise the flop, and im assuming fold to a shove. thats a fine way to play it too, though I just thought i could get a lot more value out of a check/call and proceed based on what comes (ie check raise like a 7h or something like that). in any case it had nothin to do with posting a "disguised bad beat"

 

Originally Posted by zander

I like folding pre more than flatting and playing this hand super-passively out of position then putting yourself in a situation where you have to guess on the river and post a disguised bad beat thread if you're wrong.

OP, being a jackass about "not what I asked" when people are trying to help you with how terribly you played the hand probably isn't going to make you any friends around here.

Also, in the future, if you post a hand like this, it helps to include any information you have on the villain's play, how long y'all have been together at the table and what's transpired, etc... in a vacuum it's an extremely marginal, tricky spot that might be easier if we knew something about him and would definitely be easier if we had folded pre or taken control of the pot on the flop or the turn.

Just curious why you like a lead out on the flop more than a check?

 

Originally Posted by shane3769

Def agree with folding pre. As played I like the lead out on the flop. And as played on the flop, cho raising the turn seems better with your stack. River sucks, I'd prob want to fold but not actually do it