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plo question...

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  1. tmacckk tmacckk is offline

    Corpus Christi, TX
    United States

    Posts: 395
    Joined: Jul 06

    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 5:47am)

    pokerstars Game #9430868989: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/04/15 - 05:31:55 (ET)
    Table 'Cassiopea' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: chubick ($100.70 in chips)
    Seat 2: SrHerbert ($77 in chips)
    Seat 3: tmacckk2002 ($200.10 in chips)
    Seat 4: HoldEmVin ($53 in chips)
    Seat 5: Vi3tLe ($74.75 in chips)
    Seat 6: eastwest007 ($55 in chips)
    SrHerbert: posts small blind $0.50
    tmacckk2002: posts big blind $1
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to tmacckk2002 [8d Ah Qs Qd]
    HoldEmVin: calls $1
    Vi3tLe: calls $1
    eastwest007: raises $4.50 to $5.50
    chubick: folds
    SrHerbert: folds
    tmacckk2002: calls $4.50
    SrHerbert said, "ouch"
    HoldEmVin: folds
    Vi3tLe: folds
    *** FLOP *** [5d 6d Jd]
    tmacckk2002: checks
    eastwest007: bets $6
    tmacckk2002: raises $9 to $15
    HoldEmVin leaves the table
    eastwest007: raises $34.50 to $49.50 and is all-in
    tmacckk2002: calls $34.50
    *** TURN *** [5d 6d Jd] [Jh]
    *** RIVER *** [5d 6d Jd Jh] [9s]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    tmacckk2002: shows [8d Ah Qs Qd] (a flush, Queen high)
    eastwest007: shows [Ad Ts As 4d] (a flush, Ace high)
    eastwest007 collected $109.50 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $112.50 | Rake $3
    Board [5d 6d Jd Jh 9s]
    Seat 1: chubick (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: SrHerbert (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: tmacckk2002 (big blind) showed [8d Ah Qs Qd] and lost with a flush, Queen high
    Seat 4: HoldEmVin folded before Flop
    Seat 5: Vi3tLe folded before Flop
    Seat 6: eastwest007 showed [Ad Ts As 4d] and won ($109.50) with a flush, Ace high

    so i'm a rookie at plo. like the game and it seems like there's a lot of money to be made at it. for those of you that play it i was wondering if this is just one of those hands that you're gonna go broke. obviously i could fold to the raise after the flop. but had him on the aces, but not the flush too. didn't help matters any that he was a short stack. thoughts?
  2. trsba trsba is offline

    Brisbane
    Australia

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 6:07am) in reply to tmacckk

    Ive played enough plo to know.. that someone is 60% likely to have the nut flush in that situation. Your Ace wan't suited.. U have always got to be worried about nut flushes especially when he pots it over the top of ur raise.. IMO thats a damn i have to fold if u hav eplayed enough plo. Calling $5 with AQQx is also questionable!
  3. mftpg mftpg is offline

    Spain

    Posts: 52
    Joined: Jan 07

    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 8:08am) in reply to tmacckk

    Without a read on the PF raiser I fold this for 2 reasons - your hand is mediochre (at best you are looking for a Q on the flop or a rainbow straight)... and importantly you do not close the action - if one of the limpers makes it $20 to go you have put yourself in a difficult spot here.

    If suited to the A or with more broadway straight possibilities you could reassess.

    Might be a good idea to focus on hands that have all 4 cards working together. I had similar leaks with my high pairs when transitioning to PLO from Holdem - ask yourself what flop you are looking for before cold calling those raises... got to be the nuts or damn close to it to get all in in PLO!!

    Cheers and GL,

    Mark
  4. l[dip]l l[dip]l is offline

    Amersfoort
    Netherlands

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    Joined: Oct 06

    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 8:54am) in reply to tmacckk

    I think this is an easy fold. But only to his reraise - on the flop he may be continuation betting, some people do this in omaha, but rarely on a suited flop - but i think you could raise his inital flop bet (not by a massive amount - deff not the pot) to find out where you stand. If he comes over the top of you easy fold. You played it ok, untill the call. If you put him on aces then you are probably going to be looking at the nut flush making the fold eaiser.
  5. Kajun Kajun is offline

    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 12:13pm) in reply to l[dip]l

    when he re-raised you on the flop alarm bells should of been ringing. I kinda like the semi-bluff on the turn when the board paired. But he was getting a good price to call with his nut flush. Only a Q helps you on the river and u have 2 of those left in the deck.

    If you don't have the nuts in plo then you are behind. That's good advice in a pot that's getting huge...
  6. 5aces5 5aces5 is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 1:19pm) in reply to Kajun

    If you don't have the nuts in omaha, you're not winning. Ever.
  7. Daut44 Daut44 is offline

    Posts: 538
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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 1:21pm) in reply to Kajun

    Fold preflop. QQxx is a trap hand, especially out of position.
    Fold the flop. What do you think he has? He either has a higher flush or is bluffing with naked Ad, and its more likely if he has Ad that he has another diamond than not.

    I wouldnt take the flop to war, i.e. dont raise or bet. I would call once or twice and fold if he continued to bet.
     
  8. PokerAlias PokerAlias is offline

    Chilliwack
    Canada

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 1:34pm) in reply to Daut44

    I think your hand is an easy fold preflop as it simply doesn't have enough going for it. But if you do find yourself in on the flop, you should lead out, Most of the time when people make a pot-sized raise preflop in that position they have some type of AAXX hand, that said if they have a flush its likely they have your Q high flush nutted. I think you should lead out at the pot and if raised heavily its probably time to give it up. Most players would have a hard time bluff-raising you here, and I think my goal on the flop would be to take down the pot or be able to get away from the hand as quickly and cheaply as possible.
     
  9. Daut44 Daut44 is offline

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 1:50pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    terrible advice.

    if someone has the naked Ad here they would easily bluff raise him here. leading out and then folding to a raise is the most exploitable, 0 value move possible.

    check call is so much better in every possible way.
     
  10. PokerAlias PokerAlias is offline

    Chilliwack
    Canada

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 2:09pm) in reply to Daut44

    good point. but when you do get raised its generally a 0 value situation. if you check call you've lost that money and may lose more on the turn. If you think most .50/1.00 plo players are capable of bluff raising with the naked Ad you are correct, I have played mostly tournaments not cash games, but i don't think most would make that raise on a three diamond board in a game that's probably comprised of more than a few loose players.

    that said, i do see that Check calling would have the advantage of being able to see another card such as a Q falling which could dramatically improve this hand, and still having the option to get away from it on the turn if he bets heavily while having gained a continuation bet on the flop the times when he then checks it down. This is probably the best route, only problem is its may be hard to not lose more money if he value bets and gives a decent price to showdown. And leading out is still not entirely without merits IMO.
     
  11. Daut44 Daut44 is offline

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 2:47pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    from my experience, a lot of players will cbet then give up, if we frontbet we lose that.

    also, he may check behind on the flop, and we can get in a value bet on some later street.

    further, we can set our minds to calling twice and giving up on river if we want (or we could call once, depending on the player, how likely he is to bluff raise or 3 barrel with a naked Diamond).

    if we frontbet we basically get called by sets, bluff raised or value raised and we have to fold. if we are called we also have to basically shut down. i much much much prefer check calling the flop and seeing what he does later. it does require some reads, but we should have those.
     
  12. beck_AA beck_AA is offline

    Willimantic, CT
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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 2:54pm) in reply to Daut44

    Yea i think I agree with some of the posts above...in PLO...especially playing cash games, Unless you are playing against a COMPLETE moron, if you dont have the nuts on the river, you should be ready to muck your hand. Its just not probable that the 2nd nuts will be good when there are more than 3-4 bets on the flop, turn or even river.
    But as you explained there is alot of dead money to be made playing PLO, specially low limit cash games, you would be surprised, gl playing

    beck
     
  13. PokerAlias PokerAlias is offline

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 3:04pm) in reply to Daut44

    Upon further reflection i think you're right. good analysis.
     
  14. McStraddle McStraddle is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 3:08pm) in reply to beck_AA

    If you know they got aces you really shouldnt be calling with QQxx, i look for opportunities to call with small to middle connected cards because the biggest money flop u can get is something like 228 when he has AAxx, because he will lose some money to you when you hold that 2.

    Biggest thing is reading your opponent well and putting them on a certain hand or small range of hands, because this allows you to make certain plays at them as long as both of you are relatively deepstacked.

    I wouldnt really ever raise with aces unless im raising everyhand. But if my image is pretty tight i will usually raise in position with mediocore hands because when they think you got those aces and you flop a set or some kind of form of wrap with flush draw they will tend to put in there whole stack on a measly two pair whatever form it is.
  15. tmacckk tmacckk is offline

    Corpus Christi, TX
    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 4:29pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    thanks for all the input. like i said, i'm a rookie and have a ton to learn about this game. any suggestions for the best plo book out there?
    Thread Starter
  16. McStraddle McStraddle is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 4:36pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    best way to learn fast is ask advice and watch great players play plo or find someone that will allow u to look at their hand histories.

    Books dont really go into depth about certain things and they fail to distinguish whether they are talking about shorthanded or full tables.

    You are better off learning shorthanded play because thats where the games are at.
  17. PokerAlias PokerAlias is offline

    Chilliwack
    Canada

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 4:38pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    I thought the PLO section of Super System 2 was very good. Haven't read any other books on PLO.
     
  18. McStraddle McStraddle is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 4:41pm) in reply to PokerAlias

    it was definitely very informative but it failed to talk about shorthanded play too much i believe, but most of that material u cold apply to ur game for sure.
  19. asellers07 asellers07 is offline

    Tulsa, OK
    United States

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    Apr 15th, 2007 (4/15/2007 11:47pm) in reply to tmacckk

    lol you guys are idiots, saying he shoudlve folded preflop then saying he shoudlve folded on the flop with the 3rd nuts heads up. It's not a question for post-flop play, if hes playing that hand then hes getting it allin on that flop (pot was only 110 bb's anyways) Especially in low limit omaha, people will play dry aces here thats how poorly they play. I woudlve done the exact same
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