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Hero and Villain do not have prior history, and have played together at this table for about 20 minutes. Villain seems to be a decent player with a TAG style, but loosens up in LP. Hero is playing a similar style. Villain has been raising frequently from the button and SB, and until this hand Hero has not really showed much resistance. They have not played a hand to showdown together yet.
What is the best line on the turn for the Hero - bet/call, bet/fold, or check behind?
Full Tilt Poker Game #13826744552: Table Temple (6 max) - $2/$4 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 0:39:41 ET - 2009/08/05
Seat 1: WinterMag ($78)
Seat 2: bmm77 ($337.80)
Seat 3: Villain ($439)
Seat 4: Hero ($568)
Seat 5: BakkDo0rBandiT ($784.10)
Seat 6: pytcheye1111 ($0), is sitting out
Villain posts the small blind of $2
Hero posts the big blind of $4
pytcheye1111 stands up
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Kc Tc 2h Ah]
roo_400 adds $400
BakkDo0rBandiT has 15 seconds left to act
BakkDo0rBandiT folds
WinterMag folds
bmm77 folds
Villain has 15 seconds left to act
Villain raises to $12
Hero raises to $36
Villain has 15 seconds left to act
Villain calls $24
*** FLOP *** [6d 7h Ac]
Villain checks
Hero bets $52
Villain has 15 seconds left to act
Villain calls $52
*** TURN *** [6d 7h Ac] [6h]
Villain checks
Hero: ? -
Posts: 122
Joined: Jun 08Aug 5th, 2009 (8/5/2009 2:26pm) in reply to RonDworkin
id bet pot, im sure if he hit two pair or set he would be re-raising flop, prob has a weaker ace or possible straight wrap. im pretty aggressive in plo tho
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Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 5th, 2009 (8/5/2009 2:39pm) in reply to are u goo-in
bet/call or bet/fold and why?
Originally Posted by are u goo-in
id bet pot, im sure if he hit two pair or set he would be re-raising flop, prob has a weaker ace or possible straight wrap. im pretty aggressive in plo tho
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Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 5th, 2009 (8/5/2009 2:40pm) in reply to RonDworkin
why? what is your plan for the river if he bets?
Originally Posted by RonDworkin
bet/call or bet/fold and why?
Originally Posted by are u goo-in
id bet pot, im sure if he hit two pair or set he would be re-raising flop, prob has a weaker ace or possible straight wrap. im pretty aggressive in plo tho
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Posts: 1,749
Joined: May 08Aug 5th, 2009 (8/5/2009 2:47pm) in reply to RonDworkin
I bet/fold here.
What would the villain possibly be calling/check raising here? Your TAG appearance and the action makes your play look a lot like AA. He can't call a naked wrap on the turn with a paired board and isn't the type to be check raising with a bluff. I like betting here just to try and take down the pot. If he calls or bets you, then you know you have to shut down.
If you check behind, your line gets thoroughly weakened and gives him the opportunity for "first bluff" on the river. -
Posts: 85
Joined: May 08Aug 5th, 2009 (8/5/2009 5:22pm) in reply to LordPye
id check here...not sure what "betting here to just to try and take down the pot" really means. if you're betting it should be for value against a bad player who will still call with his wrap. very rarely will a "bluff" against a weak 6 work, unless you can fire big twice and you think he folds a rundown with a 6 and no boat. your flush draw doesnt have much value here as its unlikely that he a) has a flush draw, b) will call with a weak flush, c) will call with a 6 and no boat.Originally Posted by LordPye
I bet/fold here.
What would the villain possibly be calling/check raising here? Your TAG appearance and the action makes your play look a lot like AA. He can't call a naked wrap on the turn with a paired board and isn't the type to be check raising with a bluff. I like betting here just to try and take down the pot. If he calls or bets you, then you know you have to shut down.
If you check behind, your line gets thoroughly weakened and gives him the opportunity for "first bluff" on the river. -
Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 8:13am) in reply to jasament
I think bet fold is a good line. What it means to "just take down the pot here" is that you have a likely best hand but much of your opponents range is made up of hands that won't put any more money in the pot unless they improve - so why let them?
I think checking behind has merits, but I think bet/fold is my preferred line. The only one I think is out is bet/call.
Originally Posted by jasament
id check here...not sure what "betting here to just to try and take down the pot" really means. if you're betting it should be for value against a bad player who will still call with his wrap. very rarely will a "bluff" against a weak 6 work, unless you can fire big twice and you think he folds a rundown with a 6 and no boat. your flush draw doesnt have much value here as its unlikely that he a) has a flush draw, b) will call with a weak flush, c) will call with a 6 and no boat.Originally Posted by LordPye
I bet/fold here.
What would the villain possibly be calling/check raising here? Your TAG appearance and the action makes your play look a lot like AA. He can't call a naked wrap on the turn with a paired board and isn't the type to be check raising with a bluff. I like betting here just to try and take down the pot. If he calls or bets you, then you know you have to shut down.
If you check behind, your line gets thoroughly weakened and gives him the opportunity for "first bluff" on the river. -
Posts: 1,749
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 9:53am) in reply to jasament
Wtf? Did you just totally skip the first part of the OP?Originally Posted by jasament
id check here...not sure what "betting here to just to try and take down the pot" really means. if you're betting it should be for value against a bad player who will still call with his wrap. very rarely will a "bluff" against a weak 6 work, unless you can fire big twice and you think he folds a rundown with a 6 and no boat. your flush draw doesnt have much value here as its unlikely that he a) has a flush draw, b) will call with a weak flush, c) will call with a 6 and no boat.Originally Posted by LordPye
I bet/fold here.
What would the villain possibly be calling/check raising here? Your TAG appearance and the action makes your play look a lot like AA. He can't call a naked wrap on the turn with a paired board and isn't the type to be check raising with a bluff. I like betting here just to try and take down the pot. If he calls or bets you, then you know you have to shut down.
If you check behind, your line gets thoroughly weakened and gives him the opportunity for "first bluff" on the river.
You're betting to solidify the line already taken (which appears very AA in nature). You bet to TAKE THE POT DOWN RIGHT THERE. You don't want to see another card and considering you have ZERO nut outs (since quads/boats are out there) you probably want the hand to end on the turn.
Considering the read, the villain may very well be able to release a weak 6 in this position. At the end of your post you seem to answer your own question. Since all those scenarios are unlikely, you BET THE TURN so as to ascertain exactly where you are at in the hand (and hopefully take it down).
The main point against checking is the fact that it cripples your line completely. Since the hero has been TAG and playing straightforward, villain will immediately recognize weakness and try to steal the pot on the river--leading out pretty much anything. A turn check just seems like giving up. -
Posts: 85
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:16am) in reply to LordPye
"since the hero has been TAG and playing straighforward, villian will recognize weakness and try to steal the pot"...THEN CALL THE RIVER. this i think is the key to the hand. if theres a chance the villian has a wrap or wrap and flush draw that he will almost always bluff at on the river if you check, then check is of course the best play. if not, then id say bet half pot or so.Originally Posted by LordPye
Wtf? Did you just totally skip the first part of the OP?Originally Posted by jasament
id check here...not sure what "betting here to just to try and take down the pot" really means. if you're betting it should be for value against a bad player who will still call with his wrap. very rarely will a "bluff" against a weak 6 work, unless you can fire big twice and you think he folds a rundown with a 6 and no boat. your flush draw doesnt have much value here as its unlikely that he a) has a flush draw, b) will call with a weak flush, c) will call with a 6 and no boat.Originally Posted by LordPye
I bet/fold here.
What would the villain possibly be calling/check raising here? Your TAG appearance and the action makes your play look a lot like AA. He can't call a naked wrap on the turn with a paired board and isn't the type to be check raising with a bluff. I like betting here just to try and take down the pot. If he calls or bets you, then you know you have to shut down.
If you check behind, your line gets thoroughly weakened and gives him the opportunity for "first bluff" on the river.
You're betting to solidify the line already taken (which appears very AA in nature). You bet to TAKE THE POT DOWN RIGHT THERE. You don't want to see another card and considering you have ZERO nut outs (since quads/boats are out there) you probably want the hand to end on the turn.
Considering the read, the villain may very well be able to release a weak 6 in this position. At the end of your post you seem to answer your own question. Since all those scenarios are unlikely, you BET THE TURN so as to ascertain exactly where you are at in the hand (and hopefully take it down).
The main point against checking is the fact that it cripples your line completely. Since the hero has been TAG and playing straightforward, villain will immediately recognize weakness and try to steal the pot on the river--leading out pretty much anything. A turn check just seems like giving up. -
Posts: 1,749
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:25am) in reply to jasament
But why even give the free card for villain to get there? We really don't even have a hand worth showing down at the moment. So you are saying we just call the river with a pair of aces? What if a scare card comes on board? What to do then? Why even bother making it this complicated? Just bet out the turn and take it down.Originally Posted by jasament
"since the hero has been TAG and playing straighforward, villian will recognize weakness and try to steal the pot"...THEN CALL THE RIVER. this i think is the key to the hand. if theres a chance the villian has a wrap or wrap and flush draw that he will almost always bluff at on the river if you check, then check is of course the best play. if not, then id say bet half pot or so.
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Posts: 85
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:37am) in reply to LordPye
i think betting and folding to a raise is fine, all i'm saying is that if he is the type of player that will, with a very high likelihood, bet the river with a missed wrap, a check is good. if not, then yes, i think a smallish bet is good. also, of course people do it, but if its me with AAA66 there, i dont know if a big flop bet and big turn bet is necessarily my line. so saying that we look like top boat might not entirely be true.Originally Posted by LordPye
But why even give the free card for villain to get there? We really don't even have a hand worth showing down at the moment. So you are saying we just call the river with a pair of aces? What if a scare card comes on board? What to do then? Why even bother making it this complicated? Just bet out the turn and take it down.Originally Posted by jasament
"since the hero has been TAG and playing straighforward, villian will recognize weakness and try to steal the pot"...THEN CALL THE RIVER. this i think is the key to the hand. if theres a chance the villian has a wrap or wrap and flush draw that he will almost always bluff at on the river if you check, then check is of course the best play. if not, then id say bet half pot or so.
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Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:44am) in reply to LordPye
If we choose to check behind we need to be comitting to call most rivers. We might fold a non heart 5-T (I think weak/medium straight draws make up a bunch of his range), but if we feel he has a pretty wide range and will bluff the river then checking and calling the river is reasonable. I do think you are understimating the showdown value of our hand vs his range though.Originally Posted by LordPye
But why even give the free card for villain to get there? We really don't even have a hand worth showing down at the moment. So you are saying we just call the river with a pair of aces? What if a scare card comes on board? What to do then? Why even bother making it this complicated? Just bet out the turn and take it down.Originally Posted by jasament
"since the hero has been TAG and playing straighforward, villian will recognize weakness and try to steal the pot"...THEN CALL THE RIVER. this i think is the key to the hand. if theres a chance the villian has a wrap or wrap and flush draw that he will almost always bluff at on the river if you check, then check is of course the best play. if not, then id say bet half pot or so.
Still, I agree that bet/fold is superior as I am not convinced we are going to get many bluffs out of him on the river and letting him draw is just giving him a free shot. -
Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:48am) in reply to jasament
"i think a smallish bet is good. also, of course people do it, but if its me with AAA66 there, i dont know if a big flop bet and big turn bet is necessarily my line. so saying that we look like top boat might not entirely be true."
Maybe not a big bet, but you absolutely need to bet that turn with aces full IMO - you need to be able to get the rest in on the river and you need to be able to bet the turn with force in future hands. -
Posts: 85
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:54am) in reply to RonDworkin
fair points, i think a smallish bet might be best. you do still want to get some value against a wrap or wrap+flushdraw as he probably doesnt have much more than 8 or so outs. that being said, and i dont play a whole lot of PLO cash, but if im the villian here, your line doesnt really look like top boat. some very good, creative players may see that turn bet as just what it is (a thin value bet) and check-raise. especially if you timebank as im sure most people would in your spot.Originally Posted by RonDworkin
If we choose to check behind we need to be comitting to call most rivers. We might fold a non heart 5-T (I think weak/medium straight draws make up a bunch of his range), but if we feel he has a pretty wide range and will bluff the river then checking and calling the river is reasonable. I do think you are understimating the showdown value of our hand vs his range though.Originally Posted by LordPye
But why even give the free card for villain to get there? We really don't even have a hand worth showing down at the moment. So you are saying we just call the river with a pair of aces? What if a scare card comes on board? What to do then? Why even bother making it this complicated? Just bet out the turn and take it down.Originally Posted by jasament
"since the hero has been TAG and playing straighforward, villian will recognize weakness and try to steal the pot"...THEN CALL THE RIVER. this i think is the key to the hand. if theres a chance the villian has a wrap or wrap and flush draw that he will almost always bluff at on the river if you check, then check is of course the best play. if not, then id say bet half pot or so.
Still, I agree that bet/fold is superior as I am not convinced we are going to get many bluffs out of him on the river and letting him draw is just giving him a free shot. -
Posts: 2,107
Joined: Jul 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:55am) in reply to RonDworkin
Betting here takes the pot down a huge amount of the time. A huge part of his range are hands like 8-9-10-x, hands that won't draw to a straight once the board pairs and you rep aces full.
The pot is pretty bloated here, so checking the turn with AA is definitely reasonable. Checking the turn won't turn your hand face up.
I hate bet/folding here, but it's probably better than bet/calling because you look so strong. -
Posts: 85
Joined: May 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 10:57am) in reply to RonDworkin
fair, if people will call three barrels with the 4th/5th/6th nuts then yeah you do want to get full value.Originally Posted by RonDworkin
"i think a smallish bet is good. also, of course people do it, but if its me with AAA66 there, i dont know if a big flop bet and big turn bet is necessarily my line. so saying that we look like top boat might not entirely be true."
Maybe not a big bet, but you absolutely need to bet that turn with aces full IMO - you need to be able to get the rest in on the river and you need to be able to bet the turn with force in future hands. -
Posts: 46
Joined: Mar 08Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 12:54pm) in reply to jasament
Interesting spot, I think there are a lot of valid points being thrown around. I do think a smallish bet in the range of 60-85 does the job here. If we are continuing to represtent our line as previously said than we obv wouldnt pot here as i dont think the optimal play with AAA66 here is pot and its not a believeable play. If we have any chance of making a 6 fold a double barrell is the only way with a smallish turn bet and a pot river. Obviously were not just betting to get a 6 to fold but also to make the big wrap pay us off if he wants to play. But i dont think a pot or a big bet does anything but get hands to fold that we actually want calling off the odds for a smaller amount OR hanging ourself against a better hand.
I actually think some people are underestimating a Check in this position. I do think a smallish-half pot bet is the best but a check is not bad. I dont think we get enough bluffs on the river and therefore are giving too many free cards to drawing hands for a check to be best but i think it is the only other decent option. Its annoying if by betting he makes a play on us and we have to fold BUT i still think its optimal cuz most often that is a hand we are crushed by. I think a bet gets more value and actually saves more money than it does gain value by check/calling brick rivers but I think it is close. -
Posts: 158
Joined: Nov 06Aug 6th, 2009 (8/6/2009 1:18pm) in reply to knickadam55
Pretty much mirrors my thinking. What I was hoping for in this thread was a debate on those 2 options as I think they both have their strong points.Originally Posted by knickadam55
Interesting spot, I think there are a lot of valid points being thrown around. I do think a smallish bet in the range of 60-85 does the job here. If we are continuing to represtent our line as previously said than we obv wouldnt pot here as i dont think the optimal play with AAA66 here is pot and its not a believeable play. If we have any chance of making a 6 fold a double barrell is the only way with a smallish turn bet and a pot river. Obviously were not just betting to get a 6 to fold but also to make the big wrap pay us off if he wants to play. But i dont think a pot or a big bet does anything but get hands to fold that we actually want calling off the odds for a smaller amount OR hanging ourself against a better hand.
I actually think some people are underestimating a Check in this position. I do think a smallish-half pot bet is the best but a check is not bad. I dont think we get enough bluffs on the river and therefore are giving too many free cards to drawing hands for a check to be best but i think it is the only other decent option. Its annoying if by betting he makes a play on us and we have to fold BUT i still think its optimal cuz most often that is a hand we are crushed by. I think a bet gets more value and actually saves more money than it does gain value by check/calling brick rivers but I think it is close.
FYI I bet and he folded. I bet close to pot though and I do think that was overkill.
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