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PLO8 $400 - Max Value or Max Stupidity?

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  1. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

    Ny City, NY
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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 8:53am)

    I'm going to post this in here in honor of the Omaha 8/b event as part of the FTOPS tonite...

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.pokerhand.org/?1362745

    Figured I'd post another PLO8 hand here to get some discussion going...Thoughts on this play...

    Read on the bettor...NONE, he just sat down at the table probably 10-20 hands ago...

    My thoughts...
    Preflop...Pretty standard being double sooted with an Ace...Thought of raising but just called...
    Flop...Very dicey at best, I'll be the first to admit...But figured I'd peel one on the button and see what happened...
    Turn...Well almost the best card in the deck for me...Now the OB who had bet out fairly strong on the flop now leads out $40 into an $88 pot...With everything that is out there this seems like an EXTREMELY weak bet to me...And the guy in between us just calls, again not really thinking he's strong...I took awhile to do what I did...

    Is this spew or is this getting max value of a marginal hand??? Not really worried about the flop play because I know it was very marginal and I'm not worried about trapping myself deep in this hand if I don't hit a really good card on the turn... </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
  2. pageh656 pageh656 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 9:36am) in reply to Nova2000

    what is this game with so many cards
     
  3. namniewd namniewd is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 9:44am) in reply to Nova2000

    i've always played limit 08 as supposed to plo8, but i think i like the turn play... the pot bet should be enough to iso the flat caller on the turn, and you have what looks like to be a very good shot at quartering the turn better.

    i dunno about the river pot, this is where experience in plo8 probably comes in handy... when he calls the 200 extra on the turn he either:

    1) Has A3xx
    2) Has a solid high hand...

    well alot of the A3xx hands are now quarterring you, and your high didn't improve... i think i would check river.
  4. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 9:45am) in reply to pageh656

    Come on Page!

    Twice the cards = Twice the FUN!!!
    Thread Starter
  5. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 9:50am) in reply to namniewd

    The river kinda plays itself...He only had $50 behind so I figured if I stuck my butt that far into the frying pan I might as well go "the full 9"...And that offsuit 10 really should not complete any draw that the turn bettor would have to go with his A3 (which I was pretty sure he had in order to call a $200 raise on the turn)...Yeah he COULD have A3J9, but there's no way that he bets that strongly on the flop with that hand...

    So he either has to have what he had, a uncounterfeitable low/flush draw or a Q with an A2-A3...With my raise I was actually trying to pressure the former and take the pot down there because I thought it'd be tough to call with a "naked" Q2 in that spot...

    The one leak in my game is getting attached to the nuts one way and a marginal holding in another way...Trying to figure out if this is another case of that...
    Thread Starter
  6. GambleAB GambleAB is offline 1. I'm awesome

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 10:16am) in reply to Nova2000

    I'd fold on the flop, call behind on the turn, and prob jam the river.

    On the flop, with two other people in the pot, you have to assume you are dead to a 2. No need to put more money in to maybe draw to half the pot. Also, there is no reason to believe that someone else doesn't have A3 as well, so you may be only drawing to 1/4th of the pot.

    The turn play is neglegable, since I see why you poted it (to draw to get everyone else to fold so you can scoop the pot, with the nut low as protection in case you get called). IMO, you are probably going to get called by a high hand there a vast majority of the time, so all you are doing is pushing out the 3rd person who will donate half his stack to you. But, again, not a bad play.

    River plays itself with the line you took, as you have no option but to jam. Sometimes he will have A3xx and quarter you, sometimes he will have A3xx and get quartered, and most of the time he will have some sort of average high/average low hand and you will split the pot. Probably a wash, but since the flush didn't come and he didn't re-pot the turn, he may be on a flush draw with a poor low and you can get him off of it. If you called behind on the turn, you can try to extract max value from the 3rd player or get into a whiplash situation.

    Also, the FTOPS event tonight is limit O8, not PLO8.
     
  7. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 10:39am) in reply to GambleAB

    Yeah I know it's LO8...Maybe next time I'll get some PLO8 action...

    I definitely understand the merits of folding the flop, but I was thinking in position of peeling just to see what came off and get away from it if I don't hit...I guess the peel here is pretty thin, since really I can only hope to catch a 2 or something that gives me a combo straight-flush draw with my AJ...I'm still trying to figure out the finer points of peeling in the mid-limit games as the $100 games are very passive and you really don't have to worry much about peeling a card...

    Would pulling be the right play here on the turn (as played)? Our high hand is not going to be good 99 times out of 100 so why would we want to pull the guy in between into the pot? I would think pushing here is optimal given that we are trying to get a hand like A652 (or something marginal like that) to fold...I would think that 3 handed that most rivers are going to freeze this hand...Heads-up I think (as happened) we have a chance for our high hand to be good...

    With my raise I was hoping to get the original bettor off of exactly what you said, a poor low with a flush draw...That $40 bet just didn't smell right after he led fairly strongly into the flop and then backed down on the turn...If the guy in between folds I might just flat call here, but I was trying to get this pot heads up and I thought I could do it with a huge raise...
    Thread Starter
  8. GambleAB GambleAB is offline 1. I'm awesome

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 12:34pm) in reply to Nova2000

    There was a $200 PLO8 last FTOPS, hopefully they have one in the next one.

    The reason I don't like peeling on the flop is just a numbers thing. You are calling $16 to hopefully get half of $246. After someone calls behind you, you have called $16 to hopefully get half of $262. So, $16 to win $131. Just based on the action, you have to assume you have at max 3 outs. So, just based on numbers you don't have correct odds to peel. Yes, some of the time you will hit runner-runner gin, and some of the time you will make a low and have the confidence to force everyone out of the pot, but those rare situations are negated by the times that you make the 2nd nut low and stay with the hand and lose to the nut low, and situations where you make the nut low and get quartered. The reward isn't worth the risk.

    The reason I want to keep the 3rd player in the pot is BECAUSE my high hand isn't going to be good 99% of the time. If you quarter someone in a HU pot, you win the same as you would if you win half the pot in a 3-handed pot. If you get quartered, you lose less in a 3-handed pot as you would in a HU pot.
     
  9. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 12:58pm) in reply to GambleAB

    Yeah, I did a peel last nite in a much more favorable situation and it worked out really well...Looking back at this I was really lucky to get what I got out of it...My pair wasn't good enough to continue with, with the A3...

    The question is, is this a peel situation with an A2...I would say that would be a much better scenario because we have our small pair, are drawing to the nut low and have a backdoor flush draw...

    OK, I know about the logic of the 3rd person in the hand and losing less...BUT lets say we put the original bettor on A3 and the caller on some sort of highish hand with a marginal/no low...Isn't this a case where we want to force that in between guy out of the pot to get our hand HU with the original bettor because that increases our chances to take 3/4 OR is it not worth the risk because if this guy in between us calls I'm screwed for the high half?

    Yeah I was all excited when I heard about this FTOPS and then it was limit...There just are zero big buy-in PLO8 tourneys (except stars WCOOP) to take shots at (obviously because nobody plays)...

    The next time I make it out to Vegas I'll owe you a Faygo Grape...
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  10. GambleAB GambleAB is offline 1. I'm awesome

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 1:07pm) in reply to Nova2000

    Yes, peeling with A2 here would be much more favorable since instead of 3 outs you have 14-16 outs to make a nut low in a multiway pot.

    Again, it isn't just that you lose less in a 3-way pot, it's that you will be winning the same (a vast majority of the time).

    If you have the nut low and no high hand in a three way pot where you can put another guy in the hand on the nut low, you should probably fold.
     
  11. Nova2000 Nova2000 is offline

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    Aug 14th, 2007 (8/14/2007 1:14pm) in reply to GambleAB

    Yeah defintely on the naked low, especially in PLO8...That can get expensive in a hurry...I managed to purge that one from my game (thankfully) a few hundred thousand hands ago...

    Point taken, I'll just chalk this one up to luck, thank the Poker Gods I netted almost $200 from it and move on...
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