Ok, this hand is from the 50r on stars, and was a rather interesting spot. The villain is obviously very well known. I've played with moorman a ton, and we've definitely gone to war in the past. He's already 3b me a few times at this table, and I have also 4b/folded to him.

I open QTs in mp and moorman flats the button. Now, with our history, he certainly is getting in a tonnnnnnnn of value hands pre. He's probably getting in at least 77+,ATs+,AJo+...and perhaps even wider. so most of those hands are not gonna be in his range when he flats pre

I bet the flop, and if he raised i'd be pretty happy about just getting it in...but he just flats

Once this turn card comes, it's a really tough spot. I don't really see what betting accomplishes...so i guess i should be checking, and i did...but then he bets. Vs a worse opponent, i would just check/fold here a lot...but vs someone like moorman who's very capable of floating the flop with KQ KJ type hands, or even turning something like A9 or 55 into a bluff...waht do we do...call then call a river bet?...call adn fold to a river bet?

i already described a lot about his range, is there anything i'm missing? what about my perceived range...is it so weak that he's always gonna be betting?

lastly, maybe i over-looked something...is there any merit to betting this turn?

i'm open to any and all comments



pokerstars Hand #xxxxxxx: Tournament #560010596, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (125/250) -xxxxxxxxxx
Table 'xxxxxxx xx' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: 14Hopper (10544 in chips)
Seat 2: tamborile (15383 in chips)
Seat 3: Gags30 (7397 in chips)
Seat 4: G's zee (4860 in chips)
Seat 5: Moorman1 (20915 in chips)
Seat 6: kasspav (10355 in chips)
Seat 7: kongen5 (6784 in chips)
Seat 8: shonuharry (7737 in chips)
Seat 9: dracon 19408 (10653 in chips)
14Hopper: posts the ante 25
tamborile: posts the ante 25
Gags30: posts the ante 25
G's zee: posts the ante 25
Moorman1: posts the ante 25
kasspav: posts the ante 25
kongen5: posts the ante 25
shonuharry: posts the ante 25
dracon 19408: posts the ante 25
kasspav: posts small blind 125
kongen5: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Gags30 [Ts Qs]
shonuharry: folds
dracon 19408: folds
14Hopper: folds
tamborile: folds
Gags30: raises 250 to 500
G's zee: folds
Moorman1: calls 500
kasspav: folds
kongen5: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d Td 9h]
Gags30: bets 772
Moorman1: calls 772
*** TURN *** [7d Td 9h] [6s]
Gags30: checks
Moorman1: bets 1500
Gags30: ??????

I really like call and c/c river...just an amazing card for him to turn heaps of hands that have showdown value into bluffs knowing its going to be near impossible for u to continue given the turn texture. With that being said I'd think he would r/c with a ton of his pair/straight/flush combos opposed to callin than donking turn against ur stack depth.

Think its a great spot to get value b/c of the "awful" texture... c/c and than c/c most rivers that dont complete diamonds or KJ/KQ hands. Think he is good enough to apply max pressure on that turn texture obv.

MY line...check tank call turn (to induce more bluffs to continue on river)...check call any river that isnt a diamond king or jack.

my only question is y is his range not capped @ KK+? I think its feasible to flat you with the top of his range pre to induce a squeeze from the blinds and than a potential re-iso from you? not sure why your ruling this out?

I also think that with Moorman's image, a better way to induce is to 3bet and let the blinds 4bet light.

I hate spots like this when betting the turn makes it easier to play the hand, BUT also allows us to get bluffed off the better hand.

I don't think Moorman has diamonds here very often or an 8. With that flop and only 30bbs deep effective, it seems like all of his 8x flatting hands should be getting it in pre. A8, T8, 98, 87, etc and so should a lot of the diamond hands he flats, KJdd, QJdd. The only 8x he flats pre and doesn't get in is 86s or maybe J8, but I dont think he's flatting J8 here, although I haven't played with him much. I guess he flats some of those hands on the flop with the intent to get it in on the turn, but I think he's raising flop with 8x and diamond hands a majority of the time.

I think all small pairs that call pre float the flop (I would think 22-66 are all the same pre/on the flop, but maybe he folds 22/33 and even 44), as do all non diamond broadway hands and probably a few Axdd hands. He calls with AT, KT, QT, JT, A9, A7. Sets are raising the flop pre since he rep draws and induce you to 3b for value on the flop. So vs his range, I'm most worried about AT, KT and 66. I think we're ahead of a lot of other hands and I like c/c turn and c/c most rivers.

As to betting turn, it's pretty gross because bet/call seems spewy. But b/f when we're ahead a decent % of the time doesn't seem right. I don't see any reason to bet turn v. this villain. Against someone who's not floating as often or who isn't going to be raising turn with worse hands to rep a better hand, I prefer c/f or even b/f. I guess given that he can be raising turn with worse hands we could consider b/c, but if we're willing to call off, I have to think we induce more bluffs with a c/c turn and c/c river line.

 

Originally Posted by BenFaz

I think he is sensing your check as if you have given up and he is putting you on broadways Ax hands.. How about check/jamming over his turn bet?

turning your hand into a bluff but at the same time it will fold out stuff we are beaten by like 2 pair type of hands he flats with. good spot to rep the 8, i just dont think he cant have an 8 to much of time like i think he would 3bet stuff like 78? i dunno just an idea.

moorman is not gonna bet/fold 2pair here

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

I don't think Moorman has diamonds here very often or an 8. With that flop and only 30bbs deep effective, it seems like all of his 8x flatting hands should be getting it in pre. A8, T8, 98, 87, etc and so should a lot of the diamond hands he flats, KJdd, QJdd. The only 8x he flats pre and doesn't get in is 86s or maybe J8, but I dont think he's flatting J8 here, although I haven't played with him much. I guess he flats some of those hands on the flop with the intent to get it in on the turn, but I think he's raising flop with 8x and diamond hands a majority of the time.

i agree with a lot of what you siad, and it makes a lot of sense, but i'm kind of confused....why would 98 or T8 get it in pre?
do you mean get it in on the flop?

just sayin doubt he floats low pp on that flop!!! seams retarded its the same as floating like a2 in this spot. Mayyybe 66 with the gutter but never 55 44 33 22 imo. These low pockets are just dead on this flop. He is more lilely to float em on a ragy board than here.

He always puts you in weird spots, that's why he's the greatest. Think you gotta c/c turn, c/c river against Chris or any other tough aggro villain in this spot. Dunno how he can ever have an 8 here (like you said 88 3b/calls pre, and as Tyson said, all of his hands containing a lone 8 would raise flop)

I do however think it isn't as cut and dry as with most players that he either has a set or an 8 when betting this turn. Moorman is good enough to take u to two streets of value town with KT/AT here while many others might chk back turn and/or river with those hands.

Looking fwd to seeing the results on this hand :)

You obviously have 2 choices here. Shove or fold, imo. Not knowing your history with Moorman it's hard to make any decision. Could of he of floated the flop with something like 89 or is he turning his KT, AT type hand into a bluff as the big stack here. IDK, tough spot, I'd say fold and let it go....

Interesting spot... clearly his flatting range pre and even on this flop are really wide, but I'm curious as to what his raising range would be on the flop. Is he just raise/ calling 10j/78/89? If so, I would say we beat his entire range on the turn still, excluding 66, 67, k10, and a10, which still makes it pretty close but I like a call. If not, and he's just flatting these hands on the flop, I think we can comfortably fold the turn.

I really like the check on the turn either way, if we bet we will just get owned I think.

 

Originally Posted by allani12

Hey gags I would check call moormans turn bet and check river hoping moorman checks back(fat chance on that happening).Depending what card hits river i evaluate and prob c/c any river bet due to moormans aggro deceptive style of play ,also its very likely moorman floated with kq, kj ,qj type hands.

So you call and leave yourself just over 20bbs just to evaluate the river? That's terribad... You don't have enough of this board to continue and out playing moorman on the river isn't going to happen. What river card are you hoping for that you think will push him off of the hand? Folding here is the answer.

 

Originally Posted by LSU Tigerz

So you call and leave yourself just over 20bbs just to evaluate the river? That's terribad... You don't have enough of this board to continue and out playing moorman on the river isn't going to happen. What river card are you hoping for that you think will push him off of the hand? Folding here is the answer.

ur not trying to push him off the hand....

Hey Gags, just curious, how would you be playing this flop if you completely missed with a hand like AK, AQ, etc? Are you still betting the flop? If Chris thinks you'll be c-betting nearly 100% of the time here and possibly folding a hand as good as QT if the turn comes a scare card, then he can be calling you with his entire range on the flop hoping to take it away from you if the board runs out scary.

Given that knowledge, I think leading the turn gets you into really tricky spots. I prefer check/call on the turn and river to give him a chance to bluff at it with his entire range.

moorman knows that gags is capable of check/raising as a bluff or hero calling one or 2 streets here so i think it makes moorman less likely to bet this turn 'as a bluff' as often as he would against a random player. but at the same time, check/folding TP to moorman in a heads-up pot seems CRAZY so i would prolly close my eyes, call turn and check/call any amount on any river.

I just had another look at this hand and I really hate that check on the turn. It is always best to be the first one betting into pot and by merely checking in that spot, you are basically saying that your top pair (or even over pair, given your preflop raise) doesn't seem strong anymore.

Therefore the check invites a stab from villain who bets just under 50% of the pot to get a little over 2to1 on his money and knows that he can still get away from the hand if you play a check-raise or call and then bet strong on the river. It also gives him a little more credit for bluffing the river if you call and then simply check the river.

In essence, I think you should have been leading out to see where you were at, but your check said to villain that you had given up on that hand unless you put him on a float play and shoved over the top. But that is something stupid I would do. Which is why you're an instructor and I'm a railbird ;)

Should we always be leading this flop against Moorman? Knowing that he knows that we know that the flop hits his range pretty hard is there anything wrong with a c/s flop. At worst he checks behind and our hands sorta underrepped. That may sound stupid but he's floating us a ton anyways and there are as many bad turns as good turns for us. By c/s at least were getting in our stack flop when we prob have the best hand. I think moorman would be b/f this flop a lot and it's a good board to take the pot down on the flop.

 

Originally Posted by rungoodmuch

Should we always be leading this flop against Moorman? Knowing that he knows that we know that the flop hits his range pretty hard is there anything wrong with a c/s flop. At worst he checks behind and our hands sorta underrepped..

I was thinking along these lines too, but have not played much with Moorman or Gags so it might be irrelevant.