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Pokerhound and PokerStars: the facts

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  1. FeloniousPunk FeloniousPunk is offline

    Ithaca, NY
    United States

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    Joined: Jul 06

    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:18pm)

    PokerStars has a webpage that explains what software it considers prohibited. In short, software is only prohibited if 1) it colludes; 2) works off a central player databse; 3) plays without human intervention (bot).

    Clearly PokerHound does not fall into any of these categories and is acceptable by PokerStars. To my surprise, PokerStars explicity approves use of a tool called "Sit and Go End Game Tools" (www.sngegt.com) that will tell players the EV of pushing, and/or calling a push in a sit-n-go. This is essentially a real-time SitNGo Power Tools and it has PokerStars blessing.

    With respect to the accusations that use of PokerHound is cheating, they are simply wrong. PokerStars defines what is cheating and what isn't on its site. PokerStars has said (see link below) that use of tools like PokerHound, SNGEGT, Poker-Spy, etc are approved for use. It cannot be cheating by definition. You may not like it, but that is the way it is. There really is no way to stop it either. I highly doubt a flood of e-mails complaining about this will change much.

    Personally, the PokerHound-bashing thread has helped me. I have not used particular tools because of ethical qualms. I wasn't aware, though, that PokerStars allows use of these tools. I now realize that my decision to use or not use certain tools (e.g. sng push/fold/call calculators) should not be based on my personal ethical beliefs, but rather on their ROI.

    Hope this helps resolve some of the confusion.

    http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/
  2. gank gank is offline 'tis always ganktober

    Oldwick, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 2,726
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:23pm) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    Interesting PokerHound IS NOT listed on their approved sites.

    Q. In general, what kind of programs are acceptable?

    A.
    1. <LI>Programs (or charts) that simply tell you odds, starting hand recommendations, etc. <LI>Programs that profile your opponents, but make use of only information which you have accumulated by your own play.

      Q. Can you give me a list of acceptable programs?

      A. This is a list of programs that we are aware of and permit: </LI> <LI>GameTime+ <LI>Holdem Inspector <LI>PokerAce Heads Up <LI>PokerOffice <LI>PokerTracker <LI>PokerWeapon <LI>Texas Calculatem <LI>PokerStat.com <LI>PokerInspector.com <LI>ThePokerDB.com <LI>Poker-Spy.com <LI>HoldemGenius <LI>Poker Sidekick <LI>Paragon Poker Pal <LI>PokerEinstein <LI>PokerBility.com <LI>Sit and Go End Game Tools (sngegt.com)</LI>
     1
  3. lentes130 lentes130 is offline

    Frackville, PA
    United States

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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:24pm) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    Here is my question about this. Can you take a laptop with a computer program to figure out how many outs you have or what the pot odds are or implied odds to a casino?
  4. FeloniousPunk FeloniousPunk is offline

    Ithaca, NY
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:26pm) in reply to gank

    PokerHound does not have to be explicitly listed. pokerstars makes it clear what kind of software is prohibited and list above is just a list of the kinds of software that are ok to use.

    PokerHound does not fit into PokerStars definition of prohibited software. It certainly fits into the same category of software as several of the other approved products.

    BTW Gank, as you are good at marketing, maybe you can partner with a software developer to make your own version of a real-time sng analyzer. I'm a software developer, so let me know ;)
    Thread Starter
  5. Earlybird893 Earlybird893 is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:27pm) in reply to lentes130

    i used the word qualm in a post earlier and ive seen it 18x since...gg originality

    i think ill start a word of the day...at least its getting spelled right

    john likes big words...o/u until the word qualm is in there somewhere
  6. MSU-ATO MSU-ATO is offline

    Morganfield, KY
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:29pm) in reply to lentes130

    this point is irrellevant as you cant call ur friend talk to ppl on msn/aim or jack off while playing poker in a casino either........ casino rules dont always apply to online poker rooms.........
  7. treetopallin treetopallin is offline

    Astoria, NY
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:29pm) in reply to lentes130

    Here is an answer, online poker is different then live poker. And the things is there are card protectors that show you what hands you should play in what position.
  8. FeloniousPunk FeloniousPunk is offline

    Ithaca, NY
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:31pm) in reply to Earlybird893

    I used the word the. I'll drop my patent infringement suit if you'll drop yours.
    Thread Starter
  9. Earlybird893 Earlybird893 is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:32pm) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    come at me big boy
  10. lentes130 lentes130 is offline

    Frackville, PA
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:32pm) in reply to treetopallin

    So you don't mind if someone uses a computer program against you?
  11. TPCHole5 TPCHole5 is offline

    Spring, TX
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:36pm) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    One of my goals is to master the true art of poker and move to live play. These programs would seem to take away from my overall goal. Ive done great without them. I feel stupid sitting at my computer with my odds chart,calculator and a note pad. However in the end I do feel that this is making me a better player. I could be wrong!!!!!!!!!
  12. pistol45 pistol45 is offline

    Beaverton, OR
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:37pm) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    I appreciate that the central database element is listed, but I don't think it's far away. The data mining and publication of player information seems to be getting more and more detailed.

    I don't mind personally, I doubt the data is going to be very useful against me unless you want $6. But I would be concerned if I was quitting my job, school, family, whatever to pursue playing online as a profession. A database with every hand you ever showed down/played could really change the way people play against you.
  13. Insight Insight is offline

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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:38pm) in reply to gank

    PokerHound has only been compatible with pokerstars since Dec.20, 2006. But it will be added to their list because they gave the software their blessing back when I demonstrated the Paradise version to them.

    If they had not given their blessing, I would not have spent 600 hours making the software compatible with their site.

    Thanks for posting this link to clarify the legal issue.
  14. boozhwaa boozhwaa is offline

    Matawan, NJ
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:41pm) in reply to lentes130

    Dreadfully irrelevent.
    Things you can do in online poker that you can't do in a casino:
    1. Play multiple tables being run by multiple companies.
    2. Play at tables with players in other countries.
    3. Preselect your activity (check/fold/raise).
    4. Smoke insert your choice of smokable substances.
    5. Play anonymously against someone who would recognize you by sight or name.

    There are clear differences between physical and online poker rooms...different doesn't mean cheating.
  15. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

    Atlanta, GA
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    Jan 2nd, 2007 (1/2/2007 11:42pm) in reply to pistol45

    We agree with you entirely about the concerns about a centralized database. There are sites out there that have done this, and we've refused to advertise them specifically because of ethical concerns. As of now, Pokerhound does not seem to be crossing any ethical boundaries as defined by the poker sites.
     
  16. Broseph88 Broseph88 is offline

    Dayton, OH
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 12:32am) in reply to Adam

    Right, but do you really think you guys should advertise this on your front page? Something as on the fence as this issue seems to be. Maybe an article talking about both sides of the issue instead of a praise one.
  17. FeloniousPunk FeloniousPunk is offline

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:03am) in reply to Broseph88

    It is not an "on the fence" issue. If sites say it is fine to use, it is fine to use.
    Thread Starter
  18. Askesis_ Askesis_ is offline

    Tampa, FL
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:08am) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    Just because a site doesn't specifically disallow someothing doesn't make it moral or not cheating.

    ANYONE REMEMBER WHEN MULTI ACCOUNTING ON SOME SITES WASN'T SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED? It still was always immoral.
     
  19. TimeForPT TimeForPT is offline

    Regina
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:08am) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    pokerstars already approved this software, so this thread is pointless.

    Can we get back to discussing poker please?
  20. ryanb9 ryanb9 is offline

    Corvallis, OR
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:09am) in reply to FeloniousPunk

    Can you get a Pokerhound chip installed in your head for live play?
     
  21. smartplays smartplays is offline

    Phoenix, AZ
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:10am) in reply to lentes130

    Not in the least. The only person who should mind someone using a computer against them is someone who has trouble adjusting their game to changing situations. I wish everyone at the table thought they knew how I was going to play and cared enough to try to act on it.
  22. Askesis_ Askesis_ is offline

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:16am) in reply to TimeForPT

    O RLY? I must be blind then, because I don't see it on this list....
    1. Q. Can you give me a list of acceptable programs?

      A. This is a list of programs that we are aware of and permit:
    2. GameTime+
    3. Holdem Inspector
    4. PokerAce Heads Up
    5. PokerOffice
    6. PokerTracker
    7. PokerWeapon
    8. Texas Calculatem
    9. PokerStat.com
    10. PokerInspector.com
    11. ThePokerDB.com
    12. Poker-Spy.com
    13. HoldemGenius
    14. Poker Sidekick
    15. Paragon Poker Pal
    16. PokerEinstein
    17. PokerBility.com
    18. Sit and Go End Game Tools (sngegt.com)
     
  23. Earlybird893 Earlybird893 is offline

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 1:22am) in reply to Askesis_

    askesis...they only had 12 computers in the same room...the computers werent facing each other....marcel was knocked out .....no big deal

    gg noah, no worries
  24. MSU-ATO MSU-ATO is offline

    Morganfield, KY
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 2:26am) in reply to Askesis_

    O RLY? I'm pretty sure there are many others not on this list..... the list isnt updated daily, I dont see why every1 is making such a big fuss out of this. Each player has equal chance to use the software so who cares........
  25. Sikta Sikta is offline

    Coon Rapids, MN
    United States

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 4:42am) in reply to Askesis_

    Hello SiktaMN,

    Insight Poker Hound does not use any information not available to any
    observer of the game, nor does it use any means to automate play or
    assist in cheating (such as sharing hole cards with others).

    Please note also that while some of these programs use dealer chat to
    get their information, others "scrape the screen" - getting their
    information from the actual graphics displayed to the players.
    Therefore, it's impossible to defeat such programs. It would be
    pointless for us to prohibit their use, since we'd have no way of
    knowing that they were being used.

    Therefore, Insight Poker Hound and others like it are permitted for use
    on PokerStars. Specifically prohibited are programs that share hole
    cards, or automate the play of the game so that it can run
    unattended. You may find our policy on such software in section 4.4 of our terms
    of services at:

    http://www.pokerstars.com/tos.html

    This page links to an explanation of our prohibited programs policy at:

    http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

    A partial list of permitted and forbidden programs is available on
    that page as well.

    Good luck in the games, and thank you for playing on PokerStars.

    Regards,

    MarkW
    PokerStars Support Team
  26. Sikta Sikta is offline

    Coon Rapids, MN
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 4:44am) in reply to Sikta

    "Therefore, it's impossible to defeat such programs. It would be
    pointless for us to prohibit their use, since we'd have no way of
    knowing that they were being used."

    This is the part that really gets me. So if we can devise a way to break their rules without them being able to detect it, its pointless for them to prohibit it? (Not saying Pokerhound breaks their rules)
  27. ill flu ill flu is offline

    Kailua, HI
    United States

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 4:51am) in reply to Sikta

    Well you dont make rules you can't enforce.
  28. pistol45 pistol45 is offline

    Beaverton, OR
    United States

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 8:32am) in reply to ill flu

    What if we could change screen names with some frequency. The sample size of hands in any given tournament is not really much of an edge, especially when compared to live play. I think the 'superhuman' advantage of this is the ability to retrieve history that is weeks or months old from previous encounters that would have otherwise been vague impressions or limited to notes taken during the match.
  29. StaggerLee StaggerLee is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 11:33am) in reply to MSU-ATO

    this point is irrellevant as you cant call ur friend talk to ppl on msn/aim or jack off while playing poker in a casino either........ casino rules dont always apply to online poker rooms.........

    Hopefully I'll never play with Shannon Elizabeth.
  30. hunky hunky is offline

    London
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 265
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    Jan 3rd, 2007 (1/3/2007 11:33am) in reply to Sikta

    Please follow up your email Stikta...

    They say..

    "Specifically prohibited are programs that share hole
    cards, or automate the play of the game so that it can run
    unattended    ."

    So if a program runs on its own that's obviously bad. But if a program runs, tells you what to do and you do what the program says, thats ok? Just because you are the one clicking that makes it ok? What a load of crap.
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