<SPAN>In “Harrington on Hold ‘em, Volume 1”, he talks about pot odds a lot.<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN>

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<SPAN>OK, I know what they are, and how they work.<SPAN> </SPAN>But, I always thought the point of them is that “over the long term”, if the pot is laying you nice odds vs. the cards to come to make your hand, you are to call.<SPAN> </SPAN>This seems to me like it should apply more to cash games than no-limit hold’em tournaments, which is which this book is supposed to be focusing on.</SPAN>

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<SPAN>Well, the way I see it, in a 4 or 5 hour tourney, there is no “long term”.<SPAN> </SPAN>You have to make a judgement based on THAT tournament, right there, right now.<SPAN> </SPAN>Because if you lose ¾ of your stack and your “pot odds” didn’t work out, that won’t do you a shit bit of good in this tournament right now, even if it does hold up a few days from now.</SPAN>

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<SPAN>Why would a person apply pot odds in NLHE tourney play?<SPAN> </SPAN>Why does Harrington refer to them so much in this book?</SPAN>

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<SPAN>I can’t think that I’d donk off a bunch of my chip stack with 93s just because “pot odds” told me it was the right thing to do.</SPAN>

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<SPAN>I know that if you hold a sneaky hand like 97s, 86s, T8s, and you can see a flop for cheap, you can maybe win some nice pots with a lot of limpers.</SPAN>

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<SPAN>Am I thinking wrong on this?</SPAN>

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<SPAN>Wachovia made a post on this the other day, and I tend to agree with him.<SPAN> </SPAN>Common sense has to be a part of NLHE tourney play, right?</SPAN>

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<SPAN>F pot odds for tourney play?</SPAN>

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<SPAN>Just trying to learn and understand.

Thanks!</SPAN>

I agree

I very rarely consider pot odds in tourney play, especially if i'm being put to a test for a large majority of my chips. I don't care what my pot odds are.. i'm very rarely going to make big calls just because the pot odds are right... i'd rather know that i'm going in as a favorite even if I have good fold equity rather than call with great pot odds just because the price is right.

if anyone saw the NL WSOP final table aired last night... There is a perfect example of this when Bill Gazes calls two all ins in front of him with AK off. The pot is offering him 2-1 on his call, but its for all or most of his chips with 2 people all in in front of him and 4 left at the time. He's up against TT and JJ, so it couldn't be much better for him. Both pairs flop a set, no Q and he's crippled. IMO he had to fold that hand, he could've easily been dominated calling 2 allins for most of his chips in the last 4.

Maybe he doesn't care about the money... or just wanted a better shot at 1st. In the last 4 or last 40 I think it's an easy fold

I appreciate the insight, folks.

I just watched Sheets video of the Step 5 higher where he took down $25k, and he also referenced pot odds. But, it wasn't so much a factor as he was using it to weigh "strategic" vs. "tactical" options.

There is so much to learn about this game, and being an engineer, to me, the math is fun, but the psychology is even more intriguing to me.

Pot odds are not the only thing to consider when deciding to call a bet or not, however it should weigh rather heavily on your decision. Other factors you want to think about are:

1. How likely is your hand to be best now? How likely is it to become the best hand if you are behind? (This is one that people often forget to consider, can your hand be cracked easily by what's already showing on the board - do you really want to call that huge bet with four to the flush on board and you not holding the right suited card - even with your TPTK hand).

2. What range of hands do you place your opponent(s) on? What hands have you seen them play in the same manner so far?

3. Based on the info gathered in 1 and 2, what is your EXPECTATION in this event. Over a long run of bets in this same situation will you come out ahead or behind? This is also known as EV (expected value). Many people ask how you can compute EV in a live tournament. The real answer is that you can't - you need to make yourself familiar with a variety of situations and know your odds of winning/losing in those situations (ie. odds of a pair vs. two overcards, suited connectors vs. pocket pair, etc.). These odds combined with what you would win/lose in a showdown determines your expected value. PokerStove is a great free application that can help compute the EV of one hand vs. another - or vs. a range of hands.

4. What stage of the tournament are you in? Are you on the bubble and close to being in the money, close to the FT or in the early stages still?

In order to win a NLHE tournament you MUST take some chances - either when you have the edge and you know you have the best of it or the pot odds and expected result indicate that a call would be profitable. You won't win in every flush draw situation as your 6s won't beat the As in your opponents hand if your spade flush draw is completed. It's not always about pot odds, but if you can state with some relative certainty that you have the only spade on the table then the situation changes drastically. How do you know if you have the only spade? You have to observe your opponents and come to that conclusion based on how they bet - in this hand, past hands.. any piece of info you can remember about the people you're playing with is important.

It all comes down to learning to observe betting patterns and people. Poker is a game of incomplete information that only uses the cards as props. In many cases the game is more about people, personalities and bets than it is about cards. Once you start seeing people and their patterns for what they are, making these decisions becomes much easier.

When you get into some of the higher stakes tournaments this becomes much more difficult as you have a lot more tricky, deceptive opponents who can represent a hand like AA while holding 72o and you won't know the difference in many cases. However, learning these skills at the lower limits will definitely help when you get to the higher stakes games. Being able to "read" your opponents is a very important skill.

On that same line, anyone who says they can see through their opponents and narrows their hand down to one possible holding is making a dire mistake. Never fall in love with a single hand and say that is what villain is holding unless you've been painted a clear picture of his hand. He can hold a range of hands. Always be willing to adjust that range based on new information you gain from his bets. Failing to take this advice is often referred to as fearing monsters under the bed. You can't be afraid of that all-in bet against you preflop with your KK and assume villain has AA and you are beat.