Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Preflop 3bet sizing and flop line??

Reply to Thread
  1. Dionysus Dionysus is offline

    Ireland

    Posts: 37
    Joined: Oct 08

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 11:05am)

    For what it's worth, villian had 26/5 stat over 19hnds, I had been tight and not gotten out of line.

    On reflection I played this hand in spewville! What's the optimal 3bet sizing to take OOP? Maybe 850 ?? How would you continue when the A hits the flop?

    *****

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, $80/$160 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com

    saw flop

    UTG+1 ($5130)
    MP1 ($5160)
    MP2 ($2898)
    MP3 ($25677)
    CO ($3182)
    Button ($4256)
    Hero (SB) ($14290)
    BB ($6826)
    UTG ($6829)

    Hero's M: 59.54

    Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
    1 fold, UTG+1 bets $320, 5 folds, Hero raises to $1120, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $800

    Flop: ($2400) 2, A, 5 (2 players)
  2. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 804
    Joined: Oct 10

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 12:31pm) in reply to Dionysus

    I don't usually 3bet Jacks pre-ante.

    On the flop I wouldn't get too involved. You are never getting him to fold an ace if he has one. So just check-fold or c-bet smallish at about 1050 and then shut down if he calls.
    Edited By: Sagacious Man May 1st, 2011 at 01:00 PM
  3. TheSquid TheSquid is offline

    London
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 95
    Joined: Mar 10

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 12:55pm) in reply to Sagacious Man

    Yh. Three bet smaller.

    I don't think you can three-bet here pre-antes. The reason being that your completely unbalanced. I mean you never three-bet a utg raiser at this blind level as a bluff, so when you do it with JJ (which I assume is the absolute bottom of your range) and your opponent moves all-in you're absolutely under it.

    I know that your way ahead of the range of someone playing 25/6 but keeping the pot small means you can check call two streets on ace high for less than the price of three-bet and c-bet and when board comes eight high you can play a big pot knowing your hand is massively under-repped.
    66 4
  4. bazingaking bazingaking is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 146
    Joined: Apr 11

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 12:56pm) in reply to TheSquid

    If I was in position, I would easily call with JJ here vs an early position raiser, but since we are OOP this raises a very interesting point, because its best not to be calling OOP, generally just folding or re-raising.

    Since we would be playing OOP and JJ is a rubbish hand post-flop OOP unless you hit your set, I would suggest a re-raise of about 900 - 1k, versus a 3xBB raise pre-flop, and against an average opponent. (Shipping it all in pre-flop would just mean that you would only be called by better hands.)

    What is also interesting is that the villain min raised, UTG +1 pre-flop. Without any knowledge about how often he does min-raise, so presuming this is a rare thing for him to min-raise-open, I would be worried that he has a very big hand, because a min-open can indicate a really strong hand which he is not scared about getting callers for AA and KK. Even so, there is a chance has medium strength aces (A9/AT) which he cannot bare to fold, or risk too many chips for, or even small-med pairs. Hence, given this range, it raises a question whether he will fold his medium strength aces to a raise. If you think he is a passive calling station, just calling his open and playing OOP seems to be the best play.

    On the flop, a huge part of his range are aces. Betting the flop would only really force small-med pairs to fold, and since that is a small part of his range, I would just give up on the hand, check-fold.
    Edited By: bazingaking May 1st, 2011 at 01:00 PM
  5. Dionysus Dionysus is offline

    Ireland

    Posts: 37
    Joined: Oct 08

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 3:07pm) in reply to bazingaking

    some really good thought provoking replies here... kudos
    Thread Starter
  6. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

    New York, NY
    United States

    Posts: 2,122
    Joined: Feb 06

    May 1st, 2011 (5/1/2011 5:26pm) in reply to Dionysus

    Agree with TheSquid.

    I would flat JJ pre antes both IP and OOP to an UTG+1 raise. If I was going to 3-bet, I'd rather 3-bet IP than OOP. It's easier to control the pot when IP. When OOP, pot control is more difficult and especially tough in a 3-bet pot. OOP you don't ever have the ability to check behind on any street, so your hand becomes rather transparent if you shut down after c-betting the flop. Any capable villain will own you in this spot every time. (That said, someone running 25/6 probably isn't capable, but nonetheless, I don't see a need to put yourself into such a tough spot.)

    If you do 3-bet, I'd raise ~800 IP and 900-1000 OOP. As played, c-bet about 1000 on the flop and shut down if he calls/raises.
     969 
  7. PocketSims PocketSims is offline

    Posts: 1,638
    Joined: Nov 06

    May 2nd, 2011 (5/2/2011 4:18am) in reply to tyson219

    well thats what squi was saying if u get shipped overtop of your 3 bet u are dead almost 100% of the time i thinki a call is totally fine here take a flop and evaluate if u hit a J u can c/r c/c 2 streets w/e
  8. tom44411 tom44411 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 1,908
    Joined: Aug 07

    May 5th, 2011 (5/5/2011 8:36pm) in reply to PocketSims

    the problem with 3b here is his stats. hes not opening much and limping more so hes passive. if youre gonna 3b id fire a small bet because hes most likely not going to get outta line here post flop and will most likley just fold anything you beat and only continue with hands that have you beat. so if you fire say 1000 and he calls id just want to get to showdown and be over it. when you 3b a nit opener whos opening from utg you really narrow his already narrow range. hes not opening like JTs and then calling a 3b. hes got like mid pairs, maybe KQs and like AJs+. flatting keeps in most of that range and you can get a better feel in a smaller pot oop for what to do and will be more profitable to just flat because if low flops come off or if its like J42r you can extract a lot more value than 3b pre
     
Reply to Thread