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Preflop question for good MTTers

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  1. winkie23 winkie23 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 9:26pm)

    Up to how many big blinds will you just open shove preflop? A pretty common situation I run into is like where I have maybe 10 - 18 big blinds and get dealt something like 10 10 in early position. I'm finding if I open to 2.5x or 3x I get flatted way more often than I'd like and obviously 10 10 isn't something you're super excited to see a flop with. So, my question is, up to how many big blinds will you just open shove with hands like 99 or 10 10 or AQ, AK, etc.? Assume antes are in play and if position affects how many blinds you'll shove vs. open raise, please note that too. My rule has been to shove up to 12 blinds, anything more just raise but I'm not sure that's optimal. Thanks for the help.
  2. yarbles yarbles is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 9:34pm) in reply to winkie23

    20>
    439 
  3. The Lab Rat The Lab Rat is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 10:28pm) in reply to yarbles

    Like ~17 and less. Sometimes more. Used to have the same problem in the lower stakes when Id only shove 10-12 bbs max. GL
    309 
  4. rocksolid124 rocksolid124 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 10:30pm) in reply to The Lab Rat

    Depends on people to act behind, but in a vaccum, I'll shove anywhere from 1 bb to 20-21 bbs sometimes. Just depends really. If I have a call station happy table, I might jam, whereas at a reship happy table, I might opt to r/c for value.
  5. yarbles yarbles is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 10:50pm) in reply to rocksolid124

    and if the right people are in the blinds u would be amazed at what will look up ak's 20 bb shove where as if u just standard open they will fold, .. very dependent on who is in the blinds.
    Edited By: yarbles Aug 23rd, 2010 at 10:51 PM
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  6. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 10:54pm) in reply to yarbles

    lol this thread will have about 20 wrong answers in it
    2 211 
  7. MuteAsasin87 MuteAsasin87 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 10:58pm) in reply to Gettin Daize

     
    Originally Posted by Gettin Daize View Post

    lol this thread will have about 20 wrong answers in it

    So then what's the right answer?
  8. bbbbb33 bbbbb33 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:01pm) in reply to MuteAsasin87

     
    Originally Posted by MuteAsasin87 View Post

    So then what's the right answer?

    well there is no right answer. its totally situational. the OP hasnt told us about how tight the blinds are, the stacks behind us, what position were in, payout structure, blind structure, time left in the level, these are all variable to consider, but we dont know them.
     1
  9. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:01pm) in reply to bbbbb33

    ive seen AJK open shove 35bbs from the button w/ 22 in a thread posted here a while back.
  10. jtj03 jtj03 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:18pm) in reply to poisoneye1986

     
    Originally Posted by poisoneye1986 View Post

    ive seen AJK open shove 35bbs from the button w/ 22 in a thread posted here a while back.

    I believe this was at a FT where ICM considerations have to come into mind, not to mention that what the true effective shove was.....

    Depending on your stakes, I find that 3 or even 4xing works well, but I am basically go and going any flop unless I hammer the flop in which case I might c/r...
    643 
  11. MuteAsasin87 MuteAsasin87 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:22pm) in reply to poisoneye1986

     
    Originally Posted by poisoneye1986 View Post

    ive seen AJK open shove 35bbs from the button w/ 22 in a thread posted here a while back.

    I would only be surprised if in that case, 35 BBs was the effective stack, but I'm assuming the stacks left to act were all less than 20 BBs
  12. jtj03 jtj03 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:30pm) in reply to MuteAsasin87

     
    Originally Posted by MuteAsasin87 View Post

    I would only be surprised if in that case, 35 BBs was the effective stack, but I'm assuming the stacks left to act were all less than 20 BBs

    You've contradicted yourself.
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  13. MuteAsasin87 MuteAsasin87 is offline

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    Aug 23rd, 2010 (8/23/2010 11:37pm) in reply to jtj03

     
    Originally Posted by jtj03 View Post

    You've contradicted yourself.


    I don't understand, what I meant is that if he had the effective stack at 35 bbs, then I would be shocked that he shoved 22s, but if all the stacks left to act were under say 15-20 BBs, then to me the play makes sense
  14. Gags30 Gags30 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:06am) in reply to poisoneye1986

     
    Originally Posted by poisoneye1986 View Post

    ive seen AJK open shove 35bbs from the button w/ 22 in a thread posted here a while back.

    not saying that ajk's shove was bad...but just because a top ranked player does something, doens't make it correct
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  15. TeddyKGB109 TeddyKGB109 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:11am) in reply to MuteAsasin87

     
    Originally Posted by MuteAsasin87 View Post

    I don't understand, what I meant is that if he had the effective stack at 35 bbs, then I would be shocked that he shoved 22s, but if all the stacks left to act were under say 15-20 BBs, then to me the play makes sense

    this, even without considering ICM factors if the blinds have a significantly larger range of hands they are reshipping over a std raise with than the hands they are calling a shove with, the play makes sense.

    as for the OP, my cutoff point usually fluctuates between 17-20bb to open shove, depending on my hand, stack sizes behind, and type of players behind.
     
  16. taaffey taaffey is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:13am) in reply to MuteAsasin87

     
    Originally Posted by MuteAsasin87 View Post

    I don't understand, what I meant is that if he had the effective stack at 35 bbs, then I would be shocked that he shoved 22s, but if all the stacks left to act were under say 15-20 BBs, then to me the play makes sense

    effective stacks would be 20bbs then
    Edited By: taaffey Aug 24th, 2010 at 12:14 AM
    Reason: edit: quoted the post
     
  17. MuteAsasin87 MuteAsasin87 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:23am) in reply to TeddyKGB109

    Ok, so if we're shoving up to ~17 (sometimes up to 20) BBs, what if I flipped the situation and asked whats the minimum amount of BBs needed to be able to make a standard raise and then fold if you wanted to?? Basically at what level do we longer get the option of r/f, it's either jam or fold?
  18. Jason2890 Jason2890 is offline plays plo for overlays

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:26am) in reply to Gettin Daize

     
    Originally Posted by Gettin Daize View Post

    lol this thread will have about 20 wrong answers in it

    I don't see how it could have ANY wrong answers in it, since the OP is asking how many YOU (the reader) would shove preflop, not how many bbs would be optimal to shove preflop.

    It's pretty much taking a poll. Unless people are out and out lying about how many bbs they would personally shove all in preflop, then there could be no wrong answers.
  19. yarbles yarbles is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:42am) in reply to Gettin Daize

     
    Originally Posted by Gettin Daize View Post

    lol this thread will have about 20 wrong answers in it

    "it depends" yeah this... but i think its perfectly acceptable to shove 20 bbs with your shoving range...on a limper or 2 i would jam 20 -25 bbs or i might induce just depends really on game flow. try and manipulate it for what u want to accomplish.. and know your opponents and tendencies.
    Edited By: yarbles Aug 24th, 2010 at 12:55 AM
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  20. okse54 okse54 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 12:58am) in reply to poisoneye1986

     
    Originally Posted by poisoneye1986 View Post

    ive seen AJK open shove 35bbs from the button w/ 22 in a thread posted here a while back.

    i dont remember that one but this thread came to mind when i read op http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/glorio...-stars-304119/

    theres no straight forward answer. all dependant on how many ppl left to act, how villians play, how they percieve u, how large the ante is, ICM implications and probably alot of other stuff
     
  21. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 1:08am) in reply to okse54

    http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/why-di...-table-489611/

    this is the hand i was talking about. he was 30bbs effective against poccercini and 15bbs effective vs the shortstack. there was 3 pple left to act.
  22. winkie23 winkie23 is offline

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8/24/2010 1:19am) in reply to okse54

    Ty all very much for your replies. I understand many variables like table dynamics, stacks behind, how much time left in level, etc. all play a role in the decision. My question was less about specific situations and more about whether my approach of virtually never shoving >12 blinds is a leak, generally speaking. Thanks for your help all, it sounds like opening up this part of my game makes sense and if nothing else will help keep me out of horrible spots when people flat. Thanks again
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