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A pretty straightforward SnG question

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  1. HiFi HiFi is offline

    Alexandria, VA
    United States

    Posts: 281
    Joined: Dec 07

    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:27pm)

    early/mid stages of a $22 + 2 turbo SnG on Full Tilt, 7 players remain, blinds at 50/100

    SB is pretty short, BB is about average

    UTG folds

    UTG + 1 (about an average stack) makes a standard raise

    UTG + 2 (a bit above average stack, 3rd in chips) has KK and flat calls

    I thought flatting in that spot was pretty awful for several reasons: bigger stacks left to act behind him are getting a good price on a call with suited connectors/Ax suited/other hands that KK doesn't necessarily want to play a giant multi-way pot out of position against. Also, I think that KK loses value by flatting there in the long run. Sure, sometimes you'll get people calling behind who will then fold to your flop bet if they miss and your KK is still the best hand, but I think more chips can be extracted from the EP raiser and you might even be able to stack him. Since the early position raiser must have felt pretty good about his hand to raise up front, I think the likelihood that he'll call (or come over the top of) a reraise is pretty good. KK doesn't come around every SnG you play, so maximizing value when it does is the name of the game and I felt that the flat here doesn't accomplish that.

    My friend, however, thought that the flat with KK was not just okay but brilliant. His line was so bad that just hearing it made my head hurt and I won't attempt to replicate it here, but I'm curious as to whether or not there is a good reason for flatting there that I'm missing out on. Can anyone explain why flatting here early in the SnG without any real reads is a good play? Thanks in advance, sorry if this is another dumb question.
  2. JackBileDuct JackBileDuct is offline

    Mactan
    Philippines

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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:33pm) in reply to HiFi

    I won't say that flatting is always bad as it is good to mix it up at times but flatting from UTG +2 when UTG +1 raised is pretty horrible. So UTG +1 raised to 300 and a flat for 300. With the blinds there is a pot of 750 giving anybody yet to act better than 2 to 1 on their money. He is encouraging a multi way pot and asking to lose when he can't fold his hand post flop. Given the circumstances I just can't see this as a good play in any way at all.
  3. GLMM GLMM is offline

    Whitman, MA
    United States

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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:35pm) in reply to HiFi

    I agree with you,and would probably never just call with that many left behind. The ONLY way I would flat there if there were more than 1 maniac behind me,and even then its still probably bad.

    The only play worse than your friends would be to fold,imo.
  4. Futon Futon is offline

    Ndola
    Zambia

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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:38pm) in reply to GLMM

    yup I absolutely hate this play.

    The only way I think you make this play if you are playing with a table that knows your tendencies etc and given the number of people that play these things i'm guessing that amount of random strangers/people who don't have a lot of data is pretty small.
  5. HiFi HiFi is offline

    Alexandria, VA
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:41pm) in reply to GLMM

     
    Originally Posted by GLMM View Post

    The only play worse than your friends would be to fold,imo.

    That's what I said to him. Reraise to 900ish>shove>minraise>call>fold imo. Glad I'm not alone in how bad I think the call is.
    Thread Starter
  6. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

    Westland, MI
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:54pm) in reply to HiFi

    Well, I hate flatting if the idea is to see the flop.

    This play is only good if you think that someone is likely to try a squeeze play behind you (or some other play that involves a raise). In these spots, I don't mind it, since, if your all in, it really isn't that horrible to have more than 1 caller. Outside of AA, you are dominating everything else. Hands like suited connectors gain their value on implied odds, and if you are all in pre, those odds don't exist.

    But, if you are flatting to see a flop 4 handed +, then it is a very bad move.
  7. L0bstaM0bsta L0bstaM0bsta is offline OT Podcast Host

    Munster, IN
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 3:55pm) in reply to HiFi

    I'm actually a huge fan of shoving here...it looks much weaker than KK and people are much more likely to call off their stack with AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/TT if you just stick it in...but without stack sizes it is a little harder to tel. If you reraise to 900 in this spot then it looks like a big hand.
  8. charbarj41 charbarj41 is offline

    Fort Wayne, IN
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 4:39pm) in reply to HiFi

    this play is dependent on the level in which you are playing
     
  9. Randinho Randinho is offline

    Delta
    Canada

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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 4:43pm) in reply to HiFi

    In that spot, in that game, flatting is horrible. Ship it in the middle.
  10. HiFi HiFi is offline

    Alexandria, VA
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 4:44pm) in reply to charbarj41

     
    Originally Posted by charbarj41 View Post

    this play is dependent on the level in which you are playing

    Ok. Do you like it at this level and in this spot? At what level do you feel it would be appropriate?
    Thread Starter
  11. charbarj41 charbarj41 is offline

    Fort Wayne, IN
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    Jun 6th, 2008 (6/6/2008 4:48pm) in reply to HiFi

    In this spot I personally wouldnt flat, however at a 60+ dollar buy in i flat more often then i raise
     
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