The problem is the people who don�t have a problem.

What depresses me about the whole multi-accounting affair isn�t the edge gained by multi-accounting.

Multi-accounting by itself is probably one of the least effective means of cheating on-line I can imagine. For most players, what little edge is gained from playing more than one account will almost certainly be offset by the loss of focus. If all the average internet cheat would do is multi-account on-line tournaments, the rest of us could rest peacefully. The problem, of course, is that isn�t where the cheating will stop.

Once the cheat is playing 4 or 5 accounts and discovers it�s not really making much difference in his results, he�ll move on to the next step. He gets his �buds� to start multi-accounting, too (sound familiar?), and then they all just HAVE to share their multi-account names with each other (again, sound familiar?) and then one day one of our moral exemplars gets the bright idea that it really would be easy to just help each other out by chip dumping between all these multiple accounts. I mean, why have them if you�re not going to take advantage of them. It�s not our fault they give us this angle to shoot. Dumb schmucks, they deserve it.

If all a person wants to do is play 2 or 3 accounts, there�s no reason to tell all his poker playing �buds� about it and there�s no reason for him to know that all his poker playing �buds� are also multi-accounting. You only need all that stuff if you and your �buds� are colluding between all those multiple accounts.

Oh, and it helps if you ever do get caught because you�ve got a ready made supply of people willing to post messages on Pocket Fives about how it�s not really cheating and how noble you are for admitting you cheated after your were caught red-handed.

I agree. I was originally disturbed that such a great player would cheat. But it was something I could (and did) get past pretty quickly. The real disturbing thing that I still haven't gotten over is the widespread support, understanding and condoning of cheating that has been expressed in this forum.

That bothers and worries me me way more than the actual act that occured.

interesting take, that puts a different spin on my take.... have to admit i never thot of the 3 accounts + buddies 3 accounts + other buddies 2 accounts + other buddies 5 accounts = chip dumping = sharing the spoils... If that were truly the case... fuck dont even want to think about it

I haven't posted on this topic at all yet, and I don't plan too anymore cuz there's way too much out there already on it. But, I agree with you 100% DL... and along with the "people who don't have a problem" with it, I am disgusted by several people saying they have friends who do it even though they, themselves, don't agree with it. Seriously, if poker is your profession right now, as it is for a lot of these people who have "friends" who do it... well, if I were you, those people wouldn't be my friends. Say I worked at a brick & mortar casino for a few months, and I considered several of the employees good friends of mine. Then after they basically came to trust me, they let me in on a scheme they had to rip some of the casino's profits. Now, I, as an honest guy, would decline to take part in it, but am I supposed to remain friends with these people?? I'd disassociate myself from them asap. And yet to some of you, these cheaters you know, fellow poker "professionals," are still your friends! I'm sure you get the point...

Also, I've heard some people make accussations that "most" or "90%" of the ranked players do it. That absolutely sickens me. God, I hope it's nowhere near true. Not only do I, myself, not do it (I didn't even know it could be done without the software stopping you before this whole thing broke out!), but I don't even know of anyone who does it! Myself, I'm usually playing 8 - 10 mtt's at once on my two monitors, spread out over 6 - 8 sites! I can't imagine trying to play multiple accounts on the same site while doing this!

I guess to some it up, since it's the issue right now, I don't agree with anyone who's a known cheater being ranked. I just think it's sets too bad an example for the new players at p5's as well as the long time members, people moving up in the stakes they play, and people moving up in the rankings.

God, Ive missed you....

Absolutely amazing.

I can't believe the # of posts I've seen of people saying "I know for sure of certain people that multi-account (read cheat), but I won't say who". Of course, these statements are all prefaced or followed with "I don't multi-account or think it's right".

I say bullshit. I say everyone of you that has said this is as much of a cheater as those that you speak of, either actively or passively. I can't believe that some of you have even used the defense that for integrity's sake, you won't name names. That's appalling. Ratting out a friend in grade school is one thing. But in this situation, I have no respect for ALL of you that are withholding this information. I keep hearing of people that multi-account up to 10 per tourney, of up to 14 on the ranking list, etc. And not one person has the sack to come forward with this information.

There are people the invest hard-earned money into these tournaments and you are stealing from them by not disclosing this information. That's the bottomline whether you want to think of it that way or not. Geez, get an anonymous account for crying out loud, but ONE person man up and put out names of people doing this. Sick.

DL, this may be the best post on this whole issue. It's not so much that one guy got caught cheating, I'm big boy enough to know this shit goes on, it's the fact that so many people see nothing wrong with it. You have ablely pointed out where it all leads. It's an awful cancerous thing and that's why it's so clear that cheats must be dealt with as harshly and swiftly as possible. Even so, I still think so many people will just never "get it."

The real disturbing thing that I still haven't gotten over is the widespread support, understanding and condoning of cheating that has been expressed in this forum.

Who is condoning cheating??? You have a problem then with something that doesn't exist (WIDESPEAD CONDONING OF CHEATING). Everything I have read condems the act. I have not seen Widespread Condoning of cheating so I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you must have a problem with something that DOES exist. My bad.

Either look up the word 'condone' or copy a few examles of people CONDONING cheating. I imagine this will be easy since it is to 'widesperad'.

A loophole exists where u can join mtt under more than 1 account. its not cheating its a loophole. Loopholes exist in online poker until someone is caught out, and the software is adjusted to counter it. The risk reward ratio of playing more than one account in a mtt is not worth it as look what happened to jj. He lost not only the $140k but the 40k also. Obviously many get away with it as their not ratted out.

It took someone being caught for this to be addressed by the sites and soon the software will be able to counter it and the problem will be solved.

If the 2 accounts end up on the same table, one account is frozen. so chip dumping is really not even an option. Unless they multi-accounting under 2 different isp. Which probably the smart ones are and its these people who are the real cheats, the ones with 2 or 3 phones lines in the same house with 3 pcs connected to the same site. These players are not exploiting a loophole there out and out cheating as they could play cash games, mtt and sng undetected.

The fact jj wasnt on a different isp shows his intentions were not to cheat or defraud the site but were to gain the same advantage that many others in the tournamnet were getting. players and software can detect chip dumping far easier than someone playing a mtt on 2 accounts.

in effect he had to resort to 2 accounts to put himself on an equal playing field as there are so many others doing the same thing.

The thing that should be addressed is not players on multi-accounts but the fact the software allows it.

if you went to an atm machine and asked for $20 and it gave $50 everytime instead, people would go back to that atm machine every day until the company running the atm machine correct the fault or someone ratted out that there was a defect in the machine.

Many top players online will create accounts on various skins of the same network so they can play under various different names.

many of the top stt and mtt players used to have accounts on party,empire, corals etc and they could play sng's and mtt under the different names obviously not all at the same time as in sng and cash its not possible to do it.

The different names gives them the element of disguise. Yet ive never seen anywhere on forums where this is deemed unethical.

Yet i see this as being a bigger ev advantage than playing 2 accounts in an mtt and yet this is allowed.

New players to online poker use bonus whoring to build a bankroll, they goto to sites like bonus whores and pokerlistings, 2 plus 2 etc to see what bonuses are out their. If they read the forums and they will discover there is loopholes that allow u to sign up on the same networks under the various skins. Therefore u can do the sign up and reloads on all the various skins.

This is a bigger edge than having 2 accounts in a mtt, yet these players are never called cheats and poker sites allow it.

If jj was an out and out cheat he wouldve kept his mouth shut when the other account was running good and poketed the $140k. The fact he told people and posted about it shows his intentions were never to cheat but just to gain the ev advantage that the software allows.

If i had won $140k and knew it was possible it going to be taken away i wouldve tried to lie too, so would 99% of people.

To say jj was caught red-handed again is bullshit, had certain messages not been posted here during the actual tournament its highly unlikly it wouldve happened.

There is one thing worse than a cheat and thats a rat snicth.

Seems that a lot of people decided to rat jj out and party acted on it.

But the action party took was 100% correct.

THE FAULT IS WITH THE SOFTWARE NOT THE PLAYERS WHO EXPLOIT LOOPHOLES.

Partygaming t&c clearly stated more than one account on its network was agaisnt its t&c, yet when empire and corals etc were all on the same network. Tens of thousands signed up to one of the other skins yet this breach of t&c was tolerated by the site.

Anyone who held a party and other skin account when they were on same network was just as much in breach of t&c as jj. yet that loophole was tolorated by partygaming.

Here is the problem I have with all of the sky is falling people. What if your wife has an account? Or what about that time that you started a tournament for your cousin because he was stuck in traffic. Or the time you made another account because your first account wasn't eligible for the 60 gazillion dollars in bonus money. What exactly is the criteria for them taking all of your money from all of your accounts? See everyone wants to be on the right side of this issue so there is no meaningful discussion happening.

I learned a long time ago that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You might think you aren't a cheater but can you prove that? I will give you the kid admitted it but it just seems like a slippery slope to me. It would be one thing that they took the 140k the other 40k is what scares the shit out of me. I said from the beginning that party poker should handle this and they did.

My wife plays on her account on my computer. My dad has played on his account when he is in MN. I know what you are all gonna say "well if you haven't cheated then what do you have to worry about". Right. You all have a lot more faith in the system than I do. All I am saying is they probably had the right to take his 140k but only $200 from the other account.

I stopped reading after first line. All the sites clearly state that 2 accounts is not allowed and if you do it and are caught then your account will be shut down and money taken away. If you break the rules it's not a loophole it's cheating.

it's playing on 2 accounts in one tourney that concerns me not just having 2 accounts. I can see why a top player would want to have a second account under a name that no one knows. But, to create it for the use of having two shots at a tourney is a little different. But I see your point with pp taking the money. However, I don't think there is alot of these cases and clearly the email showed that both accounts playing the same tourney gave them the overwhleming evidence to take action. So I dont' think PP would just start shutting down accounts and taking $ because there are 2account under 1 IP. My guess is the fraud team spends a countless number of hours following players with 2 accounts but never take action because there is not "overwhelming evidence" that a player has gained an atvantage through these accounts. But you would know better than I beanie, so if it's concern in your eyes that makes me nevrous.

Well you obv haven't been following the post on here about this situation. There is one in this very thread that calls it a 'loophole" which suggest that there is nothing wrong with it. There are numerous other posts that say take it easy on him because he just found another way to get an edge.

But you are right, I now have a problem with something else. I have a problem with you.

So if I have software that can manipulate the RNG (which I dont) it is a loophole and I should exploit that correct?? If it is against the rules it is cheating plain and simple. We really dont have to be real philosophical regarding this issue. I was glad to see him confess, but it still does not make it right.

Patygaming rules and regulations stated that more than one account on its network was against its t&c.

The reason i said it was a loophole was because this breach of t&c was tolerated by partygaming. You could sign up to all the skins and the worse that would happen is you would get a phonecall, yet the t&c of the site said this was clearly against the rules.

It allowed people to sign up to all the different skins even when its t&C strictly said it was against the rules.

Thats the reason i say what jj did is a loophole. is because im sure the site knows who does it multi account tournaments, just like it knew who had accounts on all the different skins.

But because there was so much negative feedback to jj it took action and enforced its t&c.

Because tens of thousands signed up to multi skins, the site tolerated it rather than freeze so many people accounts.

if partygaming stuck 100% to its t&c everyone who signed up to another skin account while its was on the partygaming network should have had their accounts frozen and money taken.

why was one breach of t&c tolerated and what jj did not.