[x]

See Where You Rank in Virginia

  1. Having been on a bad run in low to mid stakes MTTs as of late, I have been looking for ways to tighten up my game and get back on track. I have began using poker tracker, and was told of push/fold charts in a previous thread. These charts seem a bit reckless to me so I was wondering if they are just a guideline, or do winning players actually live by these charts? Obviusly, nearing the bubble is a bad time to shove with a marginal hand in early-mid position with a short stack, but what about other stages of a tournament?
    Add rickrounder to Rail
  2. I'm in no way a good player, but when you get short stacked like 10-12BB you have to really push/fold.
    Having looked at the push/fold charts they do look quite scary but then again I'm a bit of a nit.
    If you have a good read on the table and have position then I think it is okay to use the full range but if you don't then you might
    have to tighten up and wait for a better spot. The problem is you don't want to leave yourself in a position of
    pushing all in because you have to.

    These are just my thoughts and I'm sure someone alot better and wiser than me will come and tell you something which might make a bit more sense.

    GL
    Edited By: Pman9000 Feb 13th, 2011 at 03:34 PM
    Raise
    Add Pman9000 to Rail
  3. If you are new to MTTs and still experimenting with betting with a short stack; then P/F charts can help you until you get some experience.

    It's just a tool you may find useful until you get the instinct to just do it in some stuatiojns
    Raise
    Add MYBLUEDOG to Rail
  4.  
    Originally Posted by rickrounder View Post

    Obviusly, nearing the bubble is a bad time to shove with a marginal hand in early-mid position with a short stack, but what about other stages of a tournament?

    I beg to differ.
    Add otang4prez to Rail
  5. Push fold charts are basically a necessity now. A lot of pros have the ranges memorized but if you don't you should be using a chart. Simply no reason not to.
     1
    Add herschelw to Rail
  6. I do not like push fold charts because I believe they take away from independent thinking.
    Independent thinking and having your own style, and making good decisions based on tabledynamics, metagame, stack sizes and your cards, are all things that should be taken into consideration. Is not necessary to play push fold-This type of play will rarely give you the chip plead or control over the game. Of course there is a time to push. But I dont think a GREAT player is ever thinking do I push or fold.
    Two Interesting thing: w 10BB you should push KK cause everyone thinks you are playing push fold and they call you light.
    Pushing w A4 on the button when folded too during late stages of tournament is a terrible play because you either win small pot or get snap called by AJ in the BB. Happens all the time. Push fold chart do not make a better poker player be.
    You gotta think every decision through and throw the charts away. I think you will be more profitable waiting for a premium hand and getting the chips in w a push fold player. GL

    Continuing w an example from 55$ sunday. Blinds are 300-600 a player w 13000 chips pushes all in from middle position with Pocket 99
    Marcel Luske 60,000 chips snap calls w 1010 flops a set and out goes push fold player. Time to play Omahi/Hi lo MTT superfun!
    Edited By: General $cum Feb 14th, 2011 at 01:12 AM
    Raise
    Add General $cum to Rail
  7. This is basically BS. The whole point of push fold charts is that they show shoving ranges dependent on stack size and position that are MATHEMATICALLY UNEXPLOITABLE. Sure, you could get snapped by AJ when shoving with A4 but you are still 30% to win and this is more than made for by the amount of times you pick up the blinds (not a small pot - often 25% or more of your stack)

    Bear in mind though, that in many of the scenarios, shoving may be +EV, but not necessarily Optimal. e.g. shoving AA from the SB with 20BBs is obviously profitable, but equally obviously there are MORE profitable ways to play the hand.
     
    Raise
    Add CJDeman to Rail
  8. can i get links to some push food charts??? would be appreciated big time!!!! ;)
    Add jerzyneyman to Rail
  9. +1 to links plz. Thanks!
    Add ppinurshoe to Rail
  10. Add FishyLOL to Rail
  11.  
    Originally Posted by jerzyneyman View Post

    can i get links to some push food charts??? would be appreciated big time!!!! ;)

    MMMmmm Push food

    http://members.cox.net/wastrel333/Pushbot%20Charts1.pdf
     
    Add P33J to Rail
  12. ugh that chart is painful to follow... use the sheets one on pxf if ur a member otherwise sawwwy
     1
    Add doubledave22 to Rail
  13. My Baddddddddd thanks 4 the link


    I see what you mean about the charts they are a little annoying to figure but they will do for now ty....
    Edited By: jerzyneyman Feb 14th, 2011 at 02:18 PM
    Reason: cause i can
    Add jerzyneyman to Rail
  14.  
    Originally Posted by General $cum View Post

    I do not like push fold charts because I believe they take away from independent thinking.
    Independent thinking and having your own style, and making good decisions based on tabledynamics, metagame, stack sizes and your cards, are all things that should be taken into consideration. Is not necessary to play push fold-This type of play will rarely give you the chip plead or control over the game. Of course there is a time to push. But I dont think a GREAT player is ever thinking do I push or fold.
    Two Interesting thing: w 10BB you should push KK cause everyone thinks you are playing push fold and they call you light.
    Pushing w A4 on the button when folded too during late stages of tournament is a terrible play because you either win small pot or get snap called by AJ in the BB. Happens all the time. Push fold chart do not make a better poker player be.
    You gotta think every decision through and throw the charts away. I think you will be more profitable waiting for a premium hand and getting the chips in w a push fold player. GL

    Continuing w an example from 55$ sunday. Blinds are 300-600 a player w 13000 chips pushes all in from middle position with Pocket 99
    Marcel Luske 60,000 chips snap calls w 1010 flops a set and out goes push fold player. Time to play Omahi/Hi lo MTT superfun!

    wat?

    push fold charts are just math without the math... someone took the time to do all the math

    if you arent shoving A4o on the button when folded to late stages in tournaments then u are leaving a ton of chips on the table and have a huge leak in your game... its not even debatable...
    Edited By: CPOner Feb 14th, 2011 at 03:53 PM
    Raise
    Add CPOner to Rail
  15. yeah, push/food is where it's at.

    a friend and I owned a '64 ford pickup, the "FORD" above the grill was missing the "R", we found another "O" to replace it, we were very cool
    Add EyeKnows to Rail
  16. I’ve been attempting to retool my own game and really focused on the whole push fold dynamic. I played a lot of on-line poker (somewhat successfully) from 04-06 and while this concept was around then, I never used a chart and many times did not take opportunities to push when I should have. I also played most of my action on a site that had no tournament antes so even though you can adjust a push fold chart to that structure, it does change things a bit. Anyway, I started playing again this past November and in early January I came across a push fold chart I feel comfortable using and it has come in very handy and I have been happy with the results. Do I push everytime it tells me to push, no, and do I sometimes push when it says not to, yes....

    One question I have about the push fold chart is how do you account for multiple pushes? For example, you push two times in a row uncalled so it doesn’t really matter what you pushed with because nobody saw your cards. So then it gets fold to you again and the push chart says to push A6os although it’s a close call, do you take into account that you just picked up the last 2 hands and that even though your stack has more fold equity than your last two pushes, your rep might actually give you less FE than even with the shorter stack you had 2 hands ago? And you are now more likely to be called by better hands that the push chart assume are more likely to be folded if say your only pushing once a round (i.e. 66-88, A9 – A7)? Or do you still push that third time because you are losing equity otherwise?

    Also what about pushing the really big hands, AA – KK, and maybe QQ? I was in a tournament yesterday where I was in push fold mode for quite a while and picked up AA in a spot where I didn’t have to push it even though the chart said I should (had around 9000 on the 1K blinds). But I felt I had been actively enough pushing where a push was warranted from mid position. Of course I was uncalled.

    Then I get into a similar position a few levels later with KK, blinds were 1250-2500 and I had around 36K keeping in mind that I got down as low as 6K just a level earlier. So I finally have chips to work with, make a raise to 6800 and of I got what I wanted, a bigger stack moved allin...I high fived my dog and of course JJ sucks out on my KK but oh well, those things do happen. Was it a mistake to not push my KK in this situation or was this a good line of thinking?
    Raise
    Add TampaBayJams to Rail
  17.  
    Originally Posted by TampaBayJams View Post

    One question I have about the push fold chart is how do you account for multiple pushes? For example, you push two times in a row uncalled so it doesn’t really matter what you pushed with because nobody saw your cards. So then it gets fold to you again and the push chart says to push A6os although it’s a close call, do you take into account that you just picked up the last 2 hands and that even though your stack has more fold equity than your last two pushes, your rep might actually give you less FE than even with the shorter stack you had 2 hands ago? And you are now more likely to be called by better hands that the push chart assume are more likely to be folded if say your only pushing once a round (i.e. 66-88, A9 – A7)? Or do you still push that third time because you are losing equity otherwise?

    Also what about pushing the really big hands, AA – KK, and maybe QQ? I was in a tournament yesterday where I was in push fold mode for quite a while and picked up AA in a spot where I didn’t have to push it even though the chart said I should (had around 9000 on the 1K blinds). But I felt I had been actively enough pushing where a push was warranted from mid position. Of course I was uncalled.

    Your Questions is very good, that is exactly why the push fold chart from sheets on pxf is optimal when you need to narrow/widen the villain range as per your own feeling according to the whatever factor you like to add and you'll get the optimal play.

    For the Big PP question, personally under 10-12BB I NEVER raise, I always shove because I feel it look too strong for a small stack like this to open when it should be a shove. I feel it is important bc if other PPL catch this pattern on you, first you loose the value that the guy can think your are shoving light and second they will call your shove wider as they can remove AA KK QQ from your shoving range.

    I don't feel it is a mistake as having action pre with your Kings is what you want. The big stack would have certainly called with his Jacks anyway..
    Raise
    Add Lenail to Rail
  18. I'm not so sure the JJ's do call there if I pushed 36K from EP since it would have been over half his stack (he had just under 60K). He might have thought I wasn't that strong since it was the first time I hadn't gone all in preflop for over an hour and that he had Fold Equity. But I definitely wanted that action and by no means am I being result oriented.

    I'm not a memeber of a PXF so don't have access to Sheets sheet but I did recently come across a pretty cool spreadsheet I found on 2+2 which I am working with. That was just 2 weeks ago but what I found back in early January was this pretty simple sheet on-line. I'm not using it as a bible by any means but it has given me a good idea of what spots I should be pushing with what hands.

    Could someone take a look and tell me if there is something really flawed with this one - http://members.cox.net/wastrel333/Pushbot%20Charts1.pdf

    Once I get a better handle on the 2+2 spreadsheet, I'll probably just use that one but what I like about this chart is I keep a printed copy while I play and it's very easy to use.
    Raise
    Add TampaBayJams to Rail
  19. Yep, maybe he will fold... Idk, I have seen PPL calling half their stack with less but depends reaaaly on how good he is. (Guess I would fold with 60K in that spot).

    Maybe the sheet you found is good and you are right not to take it as a bible as sometimes the dynamics change so much that adaptation are more than required.. Can you link it so we can see how it goes ??
    Raise
    Add Lenail to Rail
  20. They are used as a last resort when your stack is getting low. Which happens alot online so they are good to memorize. Most of the charts will be relatively conservative and people tend to shove slightly wider depending on the situation and how low their stack actually is.
     
    Raise
    Add donkiman to Rail
  21. This was the "simple" sheet I found a few months ago - http://members.cox.net/wastrel333/Pushbot%20Charts1.pdf
    Add TampaBayJams to Rail
  22.  
    Originally Posted by General $cum View Post

    I do not like push fold charts because I believe they take away from independent thinking.
    Independent thinking and having your own style, and making good decisions based on tabledynamics, metagame, stack sizes and your cards, are all things that should be taken into consideration. Is not necessary to play push fold-This type of play will rarely give you the chip plead or control over the game. Of course there is a time to push. But I dont think a GREAT player is ever thinking do I push or fold.
    Two Interesting thing: w 10BB you should push KK cause everyone thinks you are playing push fold and they call you light.
    Pushing w A4 on the button when folded too during late stages of tournament is a terrible play because you either win small pot or get snap called by AJ in the BB. Happens all the time. Push fold chart do not make a better poker player be.
    You gotta think every decision through and throw the charts away. I think you will be more profitable waiting for a premium hand and getting the chips in w a push fold player. GL

    Continuing w an example from 55$ sunday. Blinds are 300-600 a player w 13000 chips pushes all in from middle position with Pocket 99
    Marcel Luske 60,000 chips snap calls w 1010 flops a set and out goes push fold player. Time to play Omahi/Hi lo MTT superfun!

    good idea. Just wait for AA or KK and shove. easy game
     
    Add TommyGunn34 to Rail
  23. This discourse looks like a good way to 'independently think' yourself into a lot of min cashes.
    Add SmashBrawl to Rail
  24. lotta ROT ITT.
    Add EyeKnows to Rail
  25. I am a member at Pxf can someone tell me how to access this chart from sheets. I can't find it anywhere. Thx
     
    Add razorpoker2002 to Rail
  26.  
    Originally Posted by General $cum View Post

    I do not like push fold charts because I believe they take away from independent thinking.
    Independent thinking and having your own style, and making good decisions based on tabledynamics, metagame, stack sizes and your cards, are all things that should be taken into consideration. Is not necessary to play push fold-This type of play will rarely give you the chip plead or control over the game. Of course there is a time to push. But I dont think a GREAT player is ever thinking do I push or fold.
    Two Interesting thing: w 10BB you should push KK cause everyone thinks you are playing push fold and they call you light.
    Pushing w A4 on the button when folded too during late stages of tournament is a terrible play because you either win small pot or get snap called by AJ in the BB. Happens all the time. Push fold chart do not make a better poker player be.
    You gotta think every decision through and throw the charts away. I think you will be more profitable waiting for a premium hand and getting the chips in w a push fold player. GL

    Continuing w an example from 55$ sunday. Blinds are 300-600 a player w 13000 chips pushes all in from middle position with Pocket 99
    Marcel Luske 60,000 chips snap calls w 1010 flops a set and out goes push fold player. Time to play Omahi/Hi lo MTT superfun!

    AWESOME
     
    Add bukowski101 to Rail
  27.  
    Originally Posted by razorpoker2002 View Post

    I am a member at Pxf can someone tell me how to access this chart from sheets. I can't find it anywhere. Thx

    my account on the top bar, then click sheets' spreadsheets
    Add gents to Rail
  28. Just because something is unexploitable doesn't make it optimal. Sure you can shove 46bb UTG with AA unexploitably, does that mean it is optimal strategy, no. Obviously there are a lot of times that we can raise/call or heaven forbid raise/fold when a shove is unexploitable, but other options might return us a higher expectation (player dependent obviously).

    Mindlessly following a push fold chart will make you a decent player. Fully understanding a push fold chart and being able to adapt your ranges based on the players behind you calling ranges is what will make you a great player.

    When you have shoved 2 or 3 times in a row and you pick up a hand that is slightly profitable but unexploitable based on normal calling ranges, you have to adjust a little bit because you are no longer facing normal calling ranges. These ranges are going to be biased one way or the other. They are either going to think you are FOS or that this hand is better than the last one. But regardless, they are going to need a good hand to make a stand. And we can't forget that we now have a lot more chips compared to the blinds (assuming the blinds didn't increase before the current hand), and our shoving ranges are tightening as a result, as well as tightening as a result of our earlier position than the previous hand.

    If you have folded for an orbit, and have a relatively tight image, as is often the case when you are down to M8-M4. Shoving per a chart is basically the best you can do. While raise/calling may be more appropriate for some hands, so we should just raise/call those hands and shove the rest unexploitably (although you can argue that the bottom of shove chart ranges are no longer unexploitable if your opponents know you are raise/calling the top of your range and shoving the rest).

    If you are folding a hand that is an unexploitable shove, you are doing it wrong.
     
    Raise
    Add jhill3535 to Rail