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Question about TT / JJ in early position...

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  1. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

    Norman, OK
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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 5:17pm)

    Scenario:

    TT under the gun in Paradise 50K tourney. I have about 6K in chips -- I am probably 8th in chips at the table. It is midway through the second hour. Big stack has 21K. Blinds are 400. I call the blind. Big stack raises minimum and gets 3 callers. Small stack (2400) goes all in from small blind. Pot is now 6K and action is on me...I have 5600 in front of me.

    Now do I:

    A) Call
    B) Raise all in
    C) Fold

    Calling is dangerous because there are still 4 to act behind me. Any overcard on the flop and I am surely dead. And any of those stacks can come over the top, so I am risking 30% of my chips and might not be able to see the flop.

    Raising all in is dangerous as any of the big stacks could force me all in.

    Folding seems just right.

    Long story short, I raised all in, hoping to isolate an obvious steal attempt. all folded to the button, who called with AJ suited (basically putting him all in...this is the only part that bothers me). I had the small blind dominated (he had 10K). Button hits an Ace on the turn.

    The flop turned out to be 9 high...which meant I COULD have won the flop...but is calling pre-flop in this scenario even an option?

    Hindsight says I should have folded.

    Opinions?
  2. steve steve is offline

    Memphis, TN
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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 5:57pm) in reply to pnkranger

    abort! with that many callers, someone is slowplaying something. I'm actually surprised AJ suited was the only hand that got turned over. It's a tough lay down on one hand, because the size of the pot is so attractive, but you have to expect at least the call you got, and usually more than just the one call (the more people that go all in, the better the pot odds get for each successive player). Multiple callers in that situation drops your preflop win percentage dramatically. There will probably come a better spot in which to get your chips in.
  3. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

    Atlanta, GA
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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 5:58pm) in reply to pnkranger

    I like your play. Generally people do not limp with big pairs after other people have already limped in, which meant you almost certainly had a bigger pair than any of the players who limped behind you. His call was stupid and he got lucky. You can't just call off half your chips and hope you hit the right flop. You need to isolate in this situation, especially since you are almost sure you have a better hand than any of the others you're trying to push out.
     
  4. mhoddi mhoddi is offline

    Western Sahara

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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 9:11pm) in reply to Adam

    obviously your cards were not "suited"...which automatically makes you an underdog on paradise. my advice would be to try online roulette, or thursday night bingo at the Oak.
     
  5. pnkranger pnkranger is offline

    Norman, OK
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    Feb 28th, 2005 (2/28/2005 11:57pm) in reply to mhoddi

    i knew it, hoddi. forget unsuited cards.
    Thread Starter
  6. iloveparis iloveparis is offline

    Saint Paul, MN
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    Mar 1st, 2005 (3/1/2005 2:08pm) in reply to pnkranger

    For me in that situation I would fold the 10 10 or JJ pre flop without even putting in the $400 limp. If you are one of the low stacks on the table and limping you are just asking to be raised. And do you want to commit all your chips with 10 10 or JJ? With 6000 in chips you have so many hands left to see, dont even get involved with 10 10 or JJ out of position.
  7. steve steve is offline

    Memphis, TN
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    Mar 2nd, 2005 (3/2/2005 10:55am) in reply to Adam

    Your point is well taken, Adam. I think what I was trying to say was that with 4 people left to act, and the pot that big, it is likely that more than one person with overcards would call. Then you're not just in a race, you may be up against AK and AQ, AJ, or even KQ. This significantly lowers the odds of the 10s holding up. That's the reason I might have tried to get away from the hand.
  8. sophiea sophiea is offline

    Okemos, MI
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    Mar 5th, 2005 (3/5/2005 7:02am) in reply to pnkranger

    I think the limp was the weak play, and then the call of the all in was accepting a crap shoot. Your goal is to increase your chip stack not lose the tourney. Either bet the JJ hard UTG or fold to the all in after the "safe" limp. Limping is okay if you are prepared to fold to the all in, or if no all in see the flop, but (I can't do this) TJ Cloutier says to fold (or consider folding) KK when faced with losing all of your chips in tourney play.
  9. BigGunX BigGunX is offline Mr OT Party

    Williamsburg, VA
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    Mar 5th, 2005 (3/5/2005 2:20pm) in reply to sophiea

    I agree with sophiea. I would limp with it, and if you are able to get a 3 or 4 way pot and hit your set, you stand to at least double, or maybe triple up, giving you new life. I'd definitely call less than 10 percent of my chips for this chance. However, I would definitely fold to a raise after the safe limp.
     
  10. seal seal is offline

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    Mar 9th, 2005 (3/9/2005 12:32pm) in reply to pnkranger

    Hey:

    Quick story about this point. I was in 2nd place with 35 left in a PS sat for the $500 buy in end of month tourney and they were to give seats to the top 31. One guy at my table had been raising all in on every hand and was building up quite a stack as everyone always folded. He was ranting and raving about his "mad skillz" and how nobody could touch him. On one hand he was called by a small stack who had AA and he lost the pot with his 56 off. The very next hand I got AA and again he goes all in. Even though he had about three quarter of my stack and it could've cost me a $500 seat I called him and knocked him out of the tourney. I have never seen such a string of **** come up on the screen in my life. He was furious that I would make such a bad call - lmao.

    And, btw, in similar circumstances I have before and will again fold any hand, even AA pre flop. Why take a chance to lose your seat with no further gain possible? If he wasn't such an *** I would have folded that one also.

    seal
  11. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Mar 9th, 2005 (3/9/2005 2:54pm) in reply to pnkranger

    First of all, unless he was a short stack, go find that guy who called with A-J and Bi*ch slap him for making a horrible play. But, getting back to your question, this is yet another time where the style of poker you choose to play is going to dictate what you do. There are 2 schools of thought, one is: if you are a good player, its ok to fold...most likly you are in a coin flip, but you could very easily be dominated. The small stack knows that with 3 or more limpers, SOMEONE is calling his all in bet, so Id put him on either 2 overcards or a higher pair. Which means at BEST youre on the winning end of a coinflip. Why would you want to risk your tournament (because someone else could call behind you) on a coinflip. But there are players who would also say you played it perfectly. Because of the betting, you felt you had the best hand (and it turned out you did) but you got unlucky and lost a huge pot. If this was the final table or something, or if YOU were shortstacked a little, I like this play much better. But in the late biginning stage and early middle stages of a tourney, I dont like to play coinflip hands for big pots...hope this helps!
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  12. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Mar 9th, 2005 (3/9/2005 3:00pm) in reply to supermoves

    I dont know how I forgot this very important point...I HATE calling the BB from under the gun with pocket 10's. You HAVE to raise there. Just to 3xBB or even 2.5x..whatever your normal raise is. When you dont raise, your all-in looks MUCH more like an isolation raise instead of a show of stregnth. People will tell you all the time...raise raise raise...dont come into a pot unless youre comming in raising...well, not always, but you get the idea.
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