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questionable play?

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  1. drglen drglen is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 430
    Joined: May 05

    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 12:33pm)

    This was the $20+R this monday on pokerstars. We're past the rebuy hour and my image here is pretty tight aggressive. I dont think that I had limped into a single pot the entire tournament and had also re-raised shaniac, who is a good player, several times preflop and took it down.

    PokerStars Game #3122750077: Tournament #15369704, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/11/21 - 21:39:10 (ET)
    Table '15369704 5' Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: shaniac (21875 in chips)
    Seat 2: scgolfer (7675 in chips)
    Seat 3: Ozzy 87 (10723 in chips)
    Seat 4: drglen (14105 in chips)
    Seat 5: snookrose (54128 in chips)
    Seat 6: Goosewit (9760 in chips)
    Seat 7: Quang (11600 in chips)
    Seat 8: Matrix 71 (10903 in chips)
    Seat 9: ocrowe (16405 in chips)
    shaniac: posts the ante 25
    scgolfer: posts the ante 25
    Ozzy 87: posts the ante 25
    drglen: posts the ante 25
    snookrose: posts the ante 25
    Goosewit: posts the ante 25
    Quang: posts the ante 25
    Matrix 71: posts the ante 25
    ocrowe: posts the ante 25
    scgolfer: posts small blind 100
    Ozzy 87: posts big blind 200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to drglen [Ad Ac]
    drglen: raises 400 to 600
    snookrose: folds
    Goosewit: folds
    Quang: folds
    Matrix 71: folds
    ocrowe: calls 600
    shaniac: calls 600
    scgolfer: folds
    Ozzy 87: folds
    *** FLOP *** [6d 4h 7d]
    drglen: bets 1400
    ocrowe: calls 1400
    shaniac: calls 1400
    *** TURN *** [6d 4h 7d] [Jh]
    drglen: checks
    ocrowe: checks
    shaniac: checks
    *** RIVER *** [6d 4h 7d Jh] [3h]
    drglen: checks
    ocrowe: bets 1800
    shaniac: calls 1800
    drglen: calls 1800
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    ocrowe: shows [5s 4s] (a straight, Three to Seven)
    shaniac: shows [5c 6c] (a straight, Three to Seven)
    drglen: mucks hand
    ocrowe collected 5963 from pot
    shaniac collected 5962 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 11925 | Rake 0
    Board [6d 4h 7d Jh 3h]
    Seat 1: shaniac (button) showed [5c 6c] and won (5962) with a straight, Three to Seven
    Seat 2: scgolfer (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: Ozzy 87 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: drglen mucked [Ad Ac]
    Seat 5: snookrose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: Goosewit folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: Quang folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Matrix 71 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: ocrowe showed [5s 4s] and won (5963) with a straight, Three to Seven

    I'm not really disappointed with the hand as I did not lose too much of my stack and it gave me some information on these two players. But I can't help but feeling I could have won the pot with an all-in push on the turn. My feelings at the time though was it was possible with two smooth calls on the flop that I was looking at one person who definitely had a 5 and possibly the other person had a flopped set. My feelings were that if I pushed I was going to get a call from someone who had me in really bad shape. When they all checked around it became pretty obvious they both had a 5 as I doubt that if shaniac had a set he would let the other person draw at his straight. When the 3 hit and he made a value bet that just got called I figured I was waaaaaaaaay behind but I called like a donkey anyway (I'm ok with that). My question is: does anyone fearlessly push all in on that turn with straight and flush draws on the board and two smooth calls on the flop? I thought I could find a better spot to accumulate chips (which I did, although I did not money in this tournament, that is another story) so I chose to slow down, but perhaps next time I will not give so much respect? I think clearly next time the better option is to overbet the pot on the flop which will give me a much clearer understanding of where I was at in the hand. I think they will have a hard time calling a bet closer to 3000 on the flop with just a 5 and if I do get a call there I have to give them credit for a bigger hand and shut it down.
  2. jay_shark jay_shark is offline

    NY
    United States

    Posts: 2,633
    Joined: Oct 05

    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 12:53pm) in reply to drglen

    I personally would have overbet the pot on the flop to see where i'm at . I like a bet between $2000 and $2500 . When you underbet the pot on the flop it's difficult to know where you stand when two players smooth call your bet . It either means they are drawing to beat you , or they already have you beat .

    On the turn , you should bet close to the pot and fold if you're raised all in .
  3. jokerindapack jokerindapack is offline

    East Elmhurst, NY
    United States

    Posts: 219
    Joined: Aug 05

    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 12:55pm) in reply to drglen

    You pretty much anwsered your own question here. It sucks getting drawn out on however you seem to have good insight into the hand.

    You HAVE to bet the turn there is no way around that. You gotta know where you stand.

    I don't condone calling the river, it's has easy a check fold has you can get since your other 2 opponents are showing down, and your acting last. In a sense you get to see their hole cards without having to pay extra for the info.

    Next time, raise more like 800-1000 PF, Pot the flop, Pot or push the turn.

    - Joker

    P.S. Never give your opponents respect until they give you a reason to, then after that it's all feel.
  4. drglen drglen is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 430
    Joined: May 05

    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 12:56pm) in reply to jay_shark

    I said that, and I agree. But you think if I overbet the pot on the flop and get smooth calls I should fire the pot size again on the turn? That seems to be a bit reckless to me with only top pair w/ an obvious straight draw and two flush draws on the board.
    Thread Starter
  5. drglen drglen is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 430
    Joined: May 05

    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 1:03pm) in reply to jokerindapack

    The problem I had was that shaniac has/had a propensity from what i saw to call HUGE bets with just a draw. he had already taken one person out by making what I thought was an absolutely absurd call for all his chips and hitting runner-runner. I thought that i could not only already be behind in the hand but that if i did move he would call me anyway and I was being a bit tentative because of this fact. so basically his image won the hand for him (even though he had to split the pot) because i let it affect my decision making process.

    i will play this hand differently next time assuming i am lucky enough to ever see pocket aces again in a tournament... i had/have been running pretty crap lately.
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  6. jay_shark jay_shark is offline

    NY
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    Posts: 2,633
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    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 1:08pm) in reply to drglen

    Look at it this way . Suppose you make another pot size bet on the turn . Are you likely to have the best hand over 50 % of the time ? If the answer is yes , then this means you'll win what's in the pot more than you'll lose your pot size bet . When you underbet the pot and get called by two players only , there is no reason to believe that you're losing more than 50 % of the time . There is a good chance both players are on a draw so you have to continue making a large bet . If the board was more ragged , then you can make a smaller turn bet .
  7. jay_shark jay_shark is offline

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    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 1:13pm) in reply to drglen

    In the end , you want players to call big bets when they're on a draw . It's just unfortunate this player hit his card .
  8. drglen drglen is offline

    Brooklyn, NY
    United States

    Posts: 430
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    Nov 25th, 2005 (11/25/2005 1:19pm) in reply to jay_shark

    no kidding. my point with this post i guess is to say how difficult it is to play what you perceive to be the best hand from out of position against multiple players with a coordinated board. in a sng there's no question that i bet out the pot if not my entire stack on the turn card but in an mtt with a good structure and low blinds i find it more difficult to make that play because I feel like I am a skilled player who can recover if i get enough time.

    so i guess the lesson to be learned here is do as i say not as i do.
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