Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Quick Question About Pot Odds After a Mistake

Reply to Thread
  1. elevation elevation is offline

    Posts: 7
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 3:35am)

    Hey guys,

    I'm generally new to the forum, although I've been around reading the threads for quite some time, and I always have a lot of questions so I thought I'd sign up.

    Anyways, here's my first question I can remember because of a recent encounter of the situation...

    Let's say we are on the button, Axs in our hand. Let's say we 3bet pre and get one caller. Flop comes with a possible nut flush draw, but pretty dry board. Villain leads out betting and we 3bet semibluff his raise. He responds by pushing all in.

    Okay, here is my question. Once your money goes in the pot, I understand it's dead money, so are we saying that even though we know we are beat, we can call after our reraise because that's no longer my money, and I now have pot odds to call for the flush draw? Or do you late it down because of how big the raise has become for a drawing hand? How do you guys analyze this situation? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!
  2. TourrPlayerr TourrPlayerr is offline

    MN
    United States

    Posts: 18
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 3:40am) in reply to elevation

    It all depends on how big his stack is. It's ok if he shoves but it really comes down to your stack size if you have the right value to call with just a draw? can we have more information on how much chips you would have to call off? I assume he just trying to buy the pot with high cards, or a small pair. Also, if your stacks are pretty much even your not calling with anything but the nuts.
    Edited By: TourrPlayerr Jan 30th, 2012 at 03:42 AM
  3. elevation elevation is offline

    Posts: 7
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 4:10am) in reply to TourrPlayerr

     
    Originally Posted by TourrPlayerr View Post

    It all depends on how big his stack is. It's ok if he shoves but it really comes down to your stack size if you have the right value to call with just a draw? can we have more information on how much chips you would have to call off? I assume he just trying to buy the pot with high cards, or a small pair. Also, if your stacks are pretty much even your not calling with anything but the nuts.

    I guess that's my question too... what is considered the right value to call with just a draw? Let's say that my read puts the guy on a set, removing one of my outs for the flush. That means from the flop, I'd win about 25% of the time. If my price for calling is 1:3 or better, is this a call here no matter what?
    Thread Starter
  4. Sagacious Man Sagacious Man is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 804
    Joined: Oct 10

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 4:19am) in reply to elevation

    Can you post the hand history? It will help with getting good advice.

    Generally I would call with NFD if there is too much in the pot to fold, or my stack is too small and I want to gamble, or if losing the pot will not hurt too much.
  5. elevation elevation is offline

    Posts: 7
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 4:50am) in reply to Sagacious Man

     
    Originally Posted by Sagacious Man View Post

    Can you post the hand history? It will help with getting good advice.

    Generally I would call with NFD if there is too much in the pot to fold, or my stack is too small and I want to gamble, or if losing the pot will not hurt too much.

    Sorry, I actually don't have a history to post. It was just a general question. But that's actually the kind of feedback I was looking for. So basically, even if you're getting the odds, if the bet is too large and you're comfortable with your stack, it's acceptable to lay this down?
    Thread Starter
  6. TourrPlayerr TourrPlayerr is offline

    MN
    United States

    Posts: 18
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 5:46am) in reply to elevation

     
    Originally Posted by elevation View Post

    Sorry, I actually don't have a history to post. It was just a general question. But that's actually the kind of feedback I was looking for. So basically, even if you're getting the odds, if the bet is too large and you're comfortable with your stack, it's acceptable to lay this down?

    I mean you can lay it down if you want to it all depends if you really in it to win it! Basically, giving you a 29.89 %to hit ur NFD.
  7. boneralert boneralert is online now

    Fort Worth, TX
    United States

    Posts: 675
    Joined: Jan 11

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 6:00am) in reply to TourrPlayerr

    What you want to accomplish with the aid of pot odds is to put your opponent on a range of hands, figure out how much equity you have against that range, and then determine whether the pot odds make it profitable in the long run to call. It doesn't matter if you're on a draw or a made hand or some combination of those, what matters is how much equity you think you have going forward.

    In this particular instance, a set does seem likely. But consider that he may show up with just an overpair sometimes, or even Kx suited sometimes. Either of those possibilites would increase your equity and make this a much easier call.
  8. boneralert boneralert is online now

    Fort Worth, TX
    United States

    Posts: 675
    Joined: Jan 11

    Jan 30th, 2012 (1/30/2012 6:00am) in reply to TourrPlayerr

    What you want to accomplish with the aid of pot odds is to put your opponent on a range of hands, figure out how much equity you have against that range, and then determine whether the pot odds make it profitable in the long run to call. It doesn't matter if you're on a draw or a made hand or some combination of those, what matters is how much equity you think you have going forward.

    In this particular instance, a set does seem likely. But consider that he may show up with just an overpair sometimes, or even Kx suited sometimes. Either of those possibilites would increase your equity and make this a much easier call.
  9. elevation elevation is offline

    Posts: 7
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 1:47am) in reply to boneralert

     
    Originally Posted by boneralert View Post

    What you want to accomplish with the aid of pot odds is to put your opponent on a range of hands, figure out how much equity you have against that range, and then determine whether the pot odds make it profitable in the long run to call. It doesn't matter if you're on a draw or a made hand or some combination of those, what matters is how much equity you think you have going forward.

    In this particular instance, a set does seem likely. But consider that he may show up with just an overpair sometimes, or even Kx suited sometimes. Either of those possibilites would increase your equity and make this a much easier call.

    Okay, thanks. That makes a lot of sense. If I am getting the odds to call with him having a set, then a call makes sense because a there will be times he will not have the set he is representing, resulting in better odds. Duh, I should have thought about that before. :)
    Thread Starter
  10. slidethebutton slidethebutton is offline

    Cleveland, TN
    United States

    Posts: 112
    Joined: Aug 11

    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 2:46am) in reply to elevation

    A 3 bet is not the same thing as a 3X raise..a 3 bet means the 3rd bet amount on that round of betting..example blinds are 25/50 the "50" is the first bet..someone raises to 150 is the 2nd bet..someone reraises to 450..this is a 3 bet..if it is post flop, there is no 1st bet out there, so it takes3 actual bets to make a 3 bet..bet 150 on the flop(1st bet)..raised to 375(2nd bet)..raised to 1000(3 bet)..all in(4bet)..I noticed you misused the term in your OP and thought I'd save you some grief later on

    btw you're better than 25% to hit your flush here..more like 34-35% taking away the paired board out..IDK about equity, +ev/-ev and/or implied odds..can't help you there, but it seems you're putting the cart before the horse..if I have 4:1 pot odds and a 30% chance of hitting my draw....simple enough math for me
  11. elevation elevation is offline

    Posts: 7
    Joined: Jan 12

    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 3:22am) in reply to slidethebutton

    Ok cool. Gotcha. Thanks for that. I didn't even see that I used that wording, I was just typing real fast.

    Anyways, thanks for the feedback. But am I really better than 25% to win the hand? I was using a poker odds calculator and put in A2s vs 88 with a flush draw vs a set and it was saying that I only had a 25% chance to win the hand. The reason I used those particular hands is because the was the last hand that I ran into this situation with.
    Thread Starter
  12. slidethebutton slidethebutton is offline

    Cleveland, TN
    United States

    Posts: 112
    Joined: Aug 11

    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 3:44am) in reply to elevation

    I use a simple equation..your outs(8) X 4 on flop=32%..it's always off by about 2%..and your outs on turn X2=16%..so, it's more like 34% and 18%..assuming these outs are correct (8)..then yes, I'm fairly certain about this win%..it's an easy, simple equation and is very accurate considering how simple it is..it's hard to figure the odds of a set filling up, so that could be the difference..good luck, and my stats aren't completely accurate, but usually if I put the guy on a set, I'm going to avoid drawing to flushes anyway
Reply to Thread