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Re-Stealing in Multi Table Tournaments

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  1. Metasploit Metasploit is offline

    Posts: 226
    Joined: Oct 06

    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 11:50am)

    Hi P5'ers.

    I have been watching a lot of Todd Arnolds 55R and 109R tournaments on pokerstars recently (and those fields are STACKED with serious talent) and havenoticed ALOT of re-stealing going on. Only recently, have I begun to pay moreattention to these types of plays and have added it to my repertoire as well,but I still have a lot to learn about HOW and WHEN to successfully resteal.

    I guess it comes down to reads on the players, the general feel of the table(tight, aggressive, loose etc) the structure and stage the tournament etc butdo you guys have some general rules of thumb when you are consideringre-stealing from a player who you think is being overly aggressive and steals alot of blinds / antes.

    Re-Stealing - can be VERY profitable. If the blinds and antes get big,Re-Stealing can be very profitable especially when its late and everyone istrying to make more money / final table
    or whatever their reasons are for tightening up.

    Re-Stealing - can be very costly. If your read is wrong, and you re-pop a guywho raises to a standard 2.5xbb or 3xbb and he then comes over the top of yourre-pop, you have some serious thinking to do.

    Re-Stealing - sends a message to the table and is good for your tableimage.

    Last night for example I was playing in a $10+1 8:15 PM $2500.00 Guaranteed onUB and we were down to about two tables. Blinds were about 600/1200/200 ante Ithink, and the table was very tight. I was in the big blind for 2000 and a lateposition raiser made it 6000 to go. Had lots of chips and could afford tore-pop him an additional 10000 and he quicky folded. I then typed "stayoff my blind". The next orbit he and another player walked me, and I don'tthink that would have happened if I had not sent a message to the table that Iwas not to be bullied and have my blinds stolen without resistance.

    Re-Stealing - can also be bad for your image if you have to show it down or arejust re stealing to much. People will not believe you have a hand all the time,and play back at you. It can also put you on tilt if you get caught / lose afew steals / resteals and all of a sudden you have a short stack instead of amiddle / big stack.

    I find late in MTT's when there are only 2 or 3 tables or soleft, everyone plays very tight and there is probably onlyone guy per hand putting a raise out there to take the blinds and antes. Ialways find myself wanting to re-pop these guys who just simply 3 bets inposition but sometimes the only thing that holds me back are the two garbagecards in my hand at that time.

    What about the guy who only 1'ups the big blind late? 1200/2400 and guy raisesto 4800 in the cut off with only the button, sb and bb left to act?

    I know the answer to almost any poker question is "it depends" buthow do you know when it's time to resteal (does this just come with experienceand reads) and what is the one dead 'giveaway' that enables you make a move ona blind stealer? Do you even CONSIDER your cards when you decided to resteal?or is it all about your read on the player, and his stack vs your stack and hisfold equity?

    There are so many variables involved
  2. xcalibur1120 xcalibur1120 is offline

    Helena, AL
    United States

    Posts: 313
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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 12:29pm) in reply to Metasploit

    UR right, not an issue well explained since so many variables invloved but the two most important ones for me are (1) Stack size and (2) My read, in that order. IMO, there are only a few times restealing can be highly profitable and this is around the two bubbles ($$ and FT) when most are trying to steal. In additon, i feel that you MUST be in the top 10% of chips. The ones to resteal from are the other medium size stacks at the table that will have an M-value (stack size/blinds+antes...if you haven't read HOH) around 12-16. Any lower than Ten, and they might just repush on you with 88 or AJs so a resteal loses its power. Any higher than say 25 and they may put you to the test (the reresteal...lol) Whereas a person with an M around 12-16 can still fold his AQo to your reraise.

    The thought that goes through his head holding AQo is, "Well he might have AK and I'd be crushed or a hand like TT and I'd be racing...Is this really where I want to make my stand? Well I'll fold this one since I still got plenty and were almost to final table..." And so he folds...and perhaps correctly so.

    The read is also important. Has s/he been raising with A5o or 67s earlier or only AA, AK, AQ. Does he check and call chasing flush draw in -EV situations (i.e. calling pot size bets to the river hoping to hit)? These signs usually point to a person that is NOT going to fold his A4 or his 66 to a reraise so the resteal may backfire when your're forced to race the guy with 9T since you're prob getting the right odds to call. Also, had they been raising with regularity when first in the pot? This is usaually the best time to steal when your first in the pot and most people know this so see if they have done it the past orbits. IF they have, then they may be stealing and you're restealing might be more likely to succeeed.

    Hope this helps, and if you have any disagreements feel free to flame away since I'm learning too.

    --Adam
  3. Kenny Rap Kenny Rap is offline

    Absecon, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 1,999
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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 12:30pm) in reply to Metasploit

    Here's something I have found important. Others are WAY WAY better than me so feel free to just ignore this advice.

    I don't like to do too much of the big stack vs big stack reraising. For me the most successful reststeal is when my M is like 10 or 11, and I'm in a blind, and a BIG STACK in the button or cutoff raises. Everyone thinks because the big stack has chips they can call, and although it may be true, the more important fact is they are likely raising with shit, and will fold. Also, try to resteal with small pairs, and small suited connectors and NOT RAGGY ACES!!! This is very important as AQ AK are the hands that call and u DO NOT WANT 3 OUTS!!

    Kenny
     
  4. Metasploit Metasploit is offline

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 1:08pm) in reply to Kenny Rap

    Agreed Kenny. Although in a SnG I sometimes take the opposite approach. If were down to 4 or 5 handed, getting close to the money, sometimes I like to raise on the BIG STACK provided hes not a HUGEEEEE stack. He does not want to lose his chips so close to the money and in my experience (since im a pretty profitable 10+1 sng player) the big stack will often laydown just because he does not want to "get tangled up in a hand" and risk losing his big stack. But for an MTT I usually don't raise into the big stack at the table w/ out a hand.

    I do consider ones stack size a KEY element in stealing. I am very aware of peoples stacks, their mentality at the table, their table image, what has happined to him / her recently etc when deciding to steal or not.

    I like to pick on the "middle men", meaning the guys who are not the short, desperate stack looking to double up, and not the monster big stacks that could bust you at any time. The guys who have enough fold equity to lay down, and still have a decent amount of chips to work with.

    But it always comes down to me fighting with myself internally on whether to re-raise a guys standard late position / cutoff / button raise of about 3xBB. It almost always looks so damn weak and "text book". I have this killer instinct to re-raise those type of bets late, but its always tough mentally, when you are down to the final 15 players or so, and you have a medium stack and knowing that one wrong move could really hurt your chances at a nice finish on the final table.

    The opprotunities are there, you know the table is VERY tight, you can see all the folding happeing, but it is still difficult for me at this stage in my poker development.

    I find myself wanting to shove back when I detect weakness or a blatant steal attempt. I see those "stealy type bets" but looking down at my hole cards of 74off, Q9s, 62s, 10Joff etc just makes it a little harder to pull the trigger, ya know?

    I understand poker is a hell of alot more then just playing the 2 hole cards you are dealt, and I usually DONT play my cards, I tend to play the players, and what they do NOT have etc but I find it very mentally challenging and strugle with the question of "re-raise this punk or not" lol

    sigh
    Thread Starter
  5. kornkid kornkid is offline

    Tampa, FL
    United States

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 1:20pm) in reply to Metasploit

    "Ialways find myself wanting to re-pop these guys who just simply 3 bets inposition but sometimes the only thing that holds me back are the two garbagecards in my hand at that time."

    hahahahahahahahahaha---- holding garbage cards is holding you back?????

    that is the point--- to re-steal with a shit hand
  6. notashark notashark is offline

    Phuket
    Thailand

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 1:29pm) in reply to kornkid

    truthfully i resteal all in most the time when i resteal if the guy has me covered, first off, since i primarily do it late in mtts, and it shows i am willing to play for my stack, and a button raiser doestn neccesarily have ne thing. I prefer to do it with rags, hands that can make straights and flushes and arent likely to be dominated, i.e 47s etc. But what you can learn from this, is calling down resteals light. Say i raise the button with an avg stack of like 10k chips blinds 200-400 and i raise to 1k, bb shoves for 6k, i have KQ suited, i call there almost everytime. I figure to be ahead if not flipping vs his range, so for me thats a very very easy standard call. But another area of restealing is shoving with hands that are ahead of his range, so if you think A10 is ahead of a button raise (which it normally is) then you need to shove.
     1
  7. Diggity D Diggity D is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 1:35pm) in reply to notashark

    I highly recommend never attempting the re-steal. And if someone is trying to resteal from you, just fold, they have AA or KK.

    Seriously
  8. doublemeup doublemeup is offline

    Southington, CT
    United States

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 2:07pm) in reply to Metasploit

    It has to be a part of your game without a doubt.
  9. Metasploit Metasploit is offline

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 4:19pm) in reply to Diggity D

    lol uh huh
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  10. Metasploit Metasploit is offline

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    Dec 13th, 2006 (12/13/2006 4:20pm) in reply to kornkid

    lol good point.
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