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Reading min raises

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  1. jintster jintster is offline

    London
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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:20am)

    I have great trouble in reading these. A mr in the co or button, I'll usually give some respect to (depending on the player, of course), but elsewhere I just can't put them on a hand. Do they have a monster? Or semi-junk like KQs? Or are they just setting up a bluff for later.

    Take this hand from a $6.50 SNG I played yesterday shich is bothering me. Don't have the hand history available but I remember it well. We're 7 handed and villain and I are the chip leaders. She has about 3,000, I have 3,500. BB is 50.

    Villain is MP1. One limper to her and she min raised. I'm in CO with AQo and call. Button and SB fold, BB and limper call. Pot is 425.

    Flop comes QJx rainbow. Checked to me. I raise 300. Folded to villain who calls. Pot 1,025.

    Turn is a brick. Villain checks. I raise 450. She calls. Pot 1,925

    River another brick. She pushes all in for about 2,000.

    I fold putting her on a flopped set, possibly Jacks. Too tight-weak at a $6.50?
  2. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:31am) in reply to jintster

    At the small buy-ins, I usually read a min-raise as a sign that someone doesn't know what they're doing...because I generally assume that until proven otherwise, most people at the small buy-ins aren't capable of getting tricky. The Villain very possibly min-raised here because they want to raise to steal the blinds or their cards are sooooooted or whatever, and the "min" button is right next to the call button.

    From reading the situation, I can't imagine that you made a good laydown here. It's really confusing, because I can see someone getting really clever and playing JJ exactly like this. But I can also see them playing KQ, KJ, AJ, KT, T9...lots of hands like this. The only hands you can't beat are AA, KK and a set. I don't think I'm sweating any of them.

    So, yes, you are playing too weak-tight, IMO. And if someone checks to you, you don't raise. You bet.
     
  3. hayisforhorses hayisforhorses is offline

    Lake Oswego, OR
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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:41am) in reply to jintster

    I would assume its a good laydown live, alot of the live players that play around the state of WA use the min raise to force someone to call when they have AA or KK.

    but you have to think you cant beat QJ either even if she min raised with something as weak as that.

    I usually call in this situation because of people overplaying their hands so much at the 6$ level.
  4. jintster jintster is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:42am) in reply to grapsfan

    Thanks Graps.

    I have to say that I folded partly because the check/calls and river push smelt very trappy to me but partly because I hate getting bust/crippled this early on. I'm still comfortable with 2K chips on the fold but in trouble if I call and lose.

    There are some other hands she could be playing that have me beat - QJ springs to mind.

    OTOH PT had her at 40%V$IP and 20% pre-flop raise which is very donkish esp. for lvl 3.

    Good catch on the raise/bet. Don't know why I forget that,
    Thread Starter
  5. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:50am) in reply to hayisforhorses

    This is what I seem to have noticed.

    Min raise preflop tends to be small pocket pair (it's as if they feel obligated to raise) or else a connector of somesort, usually 89 or higher. Now the exception to this is those that will min bet in later position with AA/KK, they are afraid that they will not get any action. You just have to take notes earlier on about what they showed with their min raises.

    On the flop, the min bet is typically weak. Either a draw or 2nd pair. Tread carefull here, however a river bluff is quite often effective if it looks as if they have not hit their draw.

    *edit* depending on the player, in your situation, I would be more inclined to believe that the villain at QJ.
     
  6. alwaysdrowning alwaysdrowning is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:57am) in reply to rivverkiller

    If I ever fold TPTK in a turbo at 75/150 (especially a $6.50 turbo) plz kill me immed.
  7. jintster jintster is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 11:59am) in reply to alwaysdrowning

    It's 25/50. I don't think I fold this at 75/150
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  8. fish fish is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:04pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    Min raise pre-flop I will take caution, could be AA/KK

    If they min raise me on the flop, and it is a board like QT4 with 2 hearts, you can almost narrow it down. It's usually KJ, a flush draw, or a set of 4s. To find out if it is a set of 4s I like to call and check the turn. If they check behind then it is probably a draw (after all you could've semi-bluffed the flop with a flush draw yourself, if they had a set of 4s here then they would probably bet to get you off your draw or charge u to play). Now, when they check behind I am hoping for a blank on river. The river brings 7 of clubs. I like to check again and give them a chance to bet their busted draw, the average fish will do it, and u will then pick it off.

    A call on a coordinated flop and a min raise on the turn can mean a very strong hand sometimes. If the flop is something like TQA and they cold call then min raise the turn, could very well be KJ. If the flop is something like K72 rainbow, call and min raise the turn looks like a set, proceed with caution.

    A min raise on the river is quite scary. I lose 75% of these I would say. I find it tough to call without a very strong hand, because it usually means that they have a monster. So min raise me on the river to get me off a hand!

    All of these reads are situational of course. You need to know your player to be sure, and even then you can never be "sure". These are just some general guidelines that I like to use. All in all, min raises are a bitch, and sometimes you just have to pay them off...
     
  9. jnova7723 jnova7723 is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:07pm) in reply to jintster

    I agree with grapsfan 100% here. I've noticed that a lot of weak low-limit players like to just limp in EP w/ AA or KK no matter what style the table is (tight, aggressive, loose). They automatically assume someone is going to raise, which may or may not happen. The min raise from any position, other than the cutoff or the button, usually signals a hand that is scared to just call and wants to make sure they see a flop (small pair, suited connectors). Personally, if someone min-raises in early to middle position and it folds to me in LP or in the blinds, and I'm holding a playable hand from LP or in the blinds...I might throw a re-raise in just to see where I'm at...if the min raiser just calls then I know they are weak most of the time. If they re-raise or shove...I have a decision to make. Be very very careful of min-raises either from the cutoff, button or SB (if ur in the BB)...these min-raises scream, "I WANT ACTION!"

    GL at the tables,
    NOVA
  10. jintster jintster is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:13pm) in reply to fish

    Nice post Fish.

    I'd add that the min check raise is also very scary and against a certain type of player on a certain type of board can be a very effective bluff.

    It's a funny thing but I hate min raises being used against me but I never use them myself (at least until the blinds are very high).
    Thread Starter
  11. fish fish is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:13pm) in reply to fish

    Take this hand from a second ago.

    K A WazZ posts the small blind of 15
    eat da fish posts the big blind of 30
    The button is in seat #6
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to eat da fish [9c 8h]
    sukkout calls 30
    Jdegz6 folds
    whereyat calls 30
    industry calls 30
    runbman folds
    wryfly folds
    MTMullins folds
    K A WazZ calls 15
    eat da fish checks
    *** FLOP *** [Td Ah Kh]
    K A WazZ checks
    eat da fish checks
    sukkout bets 30
    whereyat raises to 60
    industry folds
    K A WazZ folds
    eat da fish folds
    sukkout calls 30
    *** TURN *** [Td Ah Kh] [3d]
    sukkout bets 30
    whereyat raises to 180
    sukkout calls 150
    *** RIVER *** [Td Ah Kh 3d] [5h]
    sukkout bets 570
    whereyat: DAMN
    whereyat: HAVE TO CALL
    whereyat calls 570
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    sukkout shows [Ks Ts] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
    whereyat shows [Jd Qd] (a straight, Ace high)
    whereyat wins the pot (1,770) with a straight, Ace high

    He min raised the flop with the nuts, and then raised the guys min bet on the turn 30 to 180 to charge him to play what he thought was 2 hearts...
     
  12. ferrengi ferrengi is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:15pm) in reply to jintster

    You were deepstacked enough and in good position to put in a nice reraise over here. Unless you know from past experience with this opponent that they like to make this move with big pairs QQ-AA (which obviously you didn't because that was stated in your question, but I'm just saying in general), It is safe to assume that you have the best hand or maybe up against a medium pocket pair at best. You are in position and you should take full advantage and reraise to 400 or 500.
  13. fish fish is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:16pm) in reply to jintster

    I am pretty much the same. I hate min raises against me, and rarely use them myself. I'll throw them in occasionally to mix it up but in the grand scheme of things min raises suck.
     
  14. jintster jintster is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:25pm) in reply to ferrengi

    Yeah, you're probably right. I'm generally not that aggressive with AQ, AJ in lvls 1-4 (I'll even fold them utg). Maybe a leak. Maybe one of the many reasons why I'm still at the $6.50s ;)
    Thread Starter
  15. ferrengi ferrengi is offline

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 12:30pm) in reply to jintster

    I fold AJ UTG also. Particularly in a speed SNG (before the blinds get crazy).
    The point I am making is that although it may be correct to fold these hands UTG under some circumstances, in the Cutoff, they are much stronger. You can reraise with them as long as you are not up against some really tight player that likes to min raise with big hands.
    Without knowing the opponent, especially if the blinds are not that high yet and the buyin is $6.50, I assume that he is doing this with a relatively weak hand (similar to what grapsfan said).
  16. natojo99 natojo99 is offline Disabled account

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    Sep 14th, 2006 (9/14/2006 1:27pm) in reply to jnova7723

    I dont fear min raises early in a low level tourney like this. I agree with Nova a rr from LP would give you some info on where your at before the flop... the all in on the river was either a monster hand or bluff... at this level probably about 50/50 shot here but i would have thought villain would have check raised on flop or turn if he had set... i would have leaned toward a call here and had monster chip lead 6 handed if right and move onto another trourney if wrong
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