Standard shove, standard call

What's he suppose to do/raise fold here? Strong hand, and if he raises, a wide number of hands in your range he has odds to call. He also doesn't want to cbet a bad flop for him, you raise, and he has to bail.

His shove is fine, your call is standard.

 

Originally Posted by andressoprano

Standard shove, standard call

Further testament to the sad state of affairs this game has become.

I remember when poker was about getting your chips in good.

That has to be terrible?

Aren't the blinds a touch low for this to be standard?

 

Originally Posted by shooterkr

Aren't the blinds a touch low for this to be standard?

Yep, it could be, but your next option is fold. Limp is bad, raise-fold is horrid. I'm sure if somebody runs the numbers, shove will appear as the closest to optimal move.

My take is:

Shove>Fold>Limp-fold to shove>Raise-fold to shove

This seems pretty bad to me being as it's only for 180 chips. No forseeable advantage to his stack.

 

Originally Posted by goatmeal1

i'm sorry, but to everyone saying this is a standard shove, how can that be??

he's only winning 180 chips every time the other players fold. if he did this 10 times, and won 9 times (by opponents folding, because hes NEVER getting called by a worse hand here), he's still only winning 1620 chips, about half his stack. he gets called the 1/10 times by a better hand and donks himself out of the tournament. please tell me how this is profitable??

unless profitable = horrible

Are you saying when he gets called his chances of winning the hand are 0%?

All the options suck, with a shove been the one that sucks less IMO.

Level: 60.0/120.0/0.0
Structure: 0.7/0.3
Players: 3


<TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TH width=40>PU</TH><TH width=40>CA</TH><TH width=40>OC</TH><TH>Range</TH></TR><TR><TD>BU</TD><TD><TD><TD>15.5%, 22+ A8s+ A5s AJo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ J9s+ T9s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD>2.6%, TT+ AKs </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD>0.5%, AA </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>3.5%, TT+ AKs AKo </TD></TR><TR><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD><TD>49.3%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K4o+ Q3s+ Q8o+ J5s+ J9o+ T6s+ T8o+ 95s+ 98o 85s+ 75s+ 64s+ 54s </TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>9.4%, 77+ A8s+ ATo+ KQs </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Are you saying when he gets called his chances of winning the hand are 0%?

no, but chances are slim because villain calling range should be considerably tight. K10 is drawing to 3 outs 90% of the time here whether dominated or called by 10-10 or better). best case scenario, he gets called by AQ, because i think AJ is laying down here some percentage of the time.

so are you saying we are shoving K10 with 25+ BIG BLINDS in hopes of picking up 180 chips? which, by the way, does nothing to help our stack! or are we hoping for a call and a suck out as a huge underdog 90% of the time?

 

Originally Posted by goatmeal1

 

Are you saying when he gets called his chances of winning the hand are 0%?

no, but chances are slim considering villain calling range should be considerably tight. K10 is drawing to 3 outs 90% of the time here whether dominated or called by 10-10 or better). best case scenario, he gets called by AQ, because i think AJ is laying down here some percentage of the time.

so are you saying we are shoving K10 in hopes of picking up 180 chips which does nothing to help our stack, or hoping for a call and a suck out as a huge underdog 90% of the time?

i guess the fact that it's a turbo enhances the need for chip accumulation, but 180 chips??

All I'm saying ( whit my horrible English ) is:

If I have KT on the SB, we are on the bubble, and I have the BB covered, I would never find the fold button, I would never raise-fold to shove, and l could not limp with a hand that most likely is the best hand. I would also think about the BB not wanting to bubble, etc. With all this in mind, I would like to hear what is the correct move, if possible explained by those berating me for shoving here.

It is easy to say "You suck, what a bad shove", while avoiding to answer what they would do.

I was not talking about you specifically "goatmeal", I was making a general statement.

This is indeed a situation where almost every option available is not "optimal", but if you go thru all of them, I think the only 1 that makes sense is a shove.

Hey Andre I know you are an excellent sng player so thanks for the info. I play a ton of sngs also with decent success. Couple of things i wanted to add/ask. Although I dont play six handed much isnt it much more common to look at the push/fold/call charts when stacks are not this deep and more exclusively used for bubble play? For instance would the chart tell you to shove with AK under the gun on the very first hand? Last thing, can you explain further why making a standard size raise and then folding to a shove is horrid in this spot. Maybe its a huge leak of mine but when I originally looked at the HH I thouhgt that I would have played it that way. Certainly borderline with respect to stack size and I wouldn't do it any shorter but with 26 bbs left and not yet on the bubble I make a standard raise and either play the pot in position or fold pre to a reraise.

<table border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="2"><tbody><tr><td>BU</td><td>13.6%, 33+ A9s+ A5s AJo+ K9s+ KQo QTs+ J9s+ T9s </td></tr><tr><td>SB</td><td>1.8%, JJ+ </td></tr><tr><td>BB</td><td>0.5%, AA </td></tr><tr><td>BB</td><td>2.6%, TT+ AKs </td></tr><tr><td>SB</td><td>62.6%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q5o+ J2s+ J7o+ T2s+ T7o+ 93s+ 97o+ 84s+ 87o 74s+ 64s+ 53s+ 43s </td></tr><tr><td>BB</td><td>9.7%, 77+ A8s+ ATo+ KJs+ </td></tr></tbody></table>
SB shoves 62.6% of his range here, mathematically this is a solid play. Your call here is also valid by the numbers

 

Originally Posted by mleone3333

Hey Andre I know you are an excellent sng player so thanks for the info. I play a ton of sngs also with decent success. Couple of things i wanted to add/ask. Although I dont play six handed much isnt it much more common to look at the push/fold/call charts when stacks are not this deep and more exclusively used for bubble play? For instance would the chart tell you to shove with AK under the gun on the very first hand? Last thing, can you explain further why making a standard size raise and then folding to a shove is horrid in this spot. Maybe its a huge leak of mine but when I originally looked at the HH I thouhgt that I would have played it that way. Certainly borderline with respect to stack size and I wouldn't do it any shorter but with 26 bbs left and not yet on the bubble I make a standard raise and either play the pot in position or fold pre to a reraise.

I don't support my opinion on what ICM says. I posted the charts to show that SB's optimal shoving range is super wide, as much as 49%. FWIW I would not shove that wide.

Raise-fold seems completely spewy to me.

By raising to 360 ( stndrd 3x) we are opening the door to get re-shoved by worst, or by hands that would have folded to our open- shove ( 22-66, Axos up to AT probably, Kxs, etc) , which can very likely be the case if player on the BB knows what he's doing.

Myself, I would have to have a sick read on you to don't shove a super wide range if you make a standard raise over my BB in this spot.

This is such an ewwww spot.

If I was that deep and had any faith that I could outplay my opponents I would either open fold (I don't like) or simply just be 2.5x and release to a shove (preferred). If I was in against players that were better than me I would go with the math and just shove here. Considering he is a "pro" he probably should just release and outplay everyone to the money--but to each their own.