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really tough situation with qq pf, hand from 300 wed

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  1. Babooyah Babooyah is offline

    Posts: 122
    Joined: Nov 06

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 11:19am)

    pokerstars Game #14950299641: Tournament #75078470, $300+$20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2008/01/31 - 01:38:19 (ET)
    Table '75078470 23' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: deuces85 (20900 in chips)
    Seat 2: Babooyah (43961 in chips)
    Seat 3: sandman651 (16726 in chips)
    Seat 4: FatalError (26437 in chips)
    Seat 5: hovienko (24940 in chips)
    Seat 6: Sooners (98770 in chips)
    Seat 7: P0KERDUUDE (72735 in chips)
    Seat 8: Butch3030 (28501 in chips)
    Seat 9: Bonds252525 (42404 in chips)
    deuces85: posts the ante 60
    Babooyah: posts the ante 60
    sandman651: posts the ante 60
    FatalError: posts the ante 60
    hovienko: posts the ante 60
    Sooners: posts the ante 60
    P0KERDUUDE: posts the ante 60
    Butch3030: posts the ante 60
    Bonds252525: posts the ante 60
    Butch3030: posts small blind 600
    Bonds252525: posts big blind 1200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Babooyah [Qs Qd]
    deuces85: folds
    Babooyah: raises 1860 to 3060
    sandman651: raises 13606 to 16666 and is all-in
    FatalError: folds
    hovienko: raises 8214 to 24880 and is all-in
    Sooners: folds
    P0KERDUUDE: folds
    Butch3030: folds
    Bonds252525: folds
    Babooyah:

    needs 21820 to call and win ~45,000

    Is this a call since their stack is small?

    what would u do here?

    Sandman651 was pretty tight since his stack was small. Hovienko is capable of making moves but I gotta assume he has a real hand in order to 3bet there.
     
  2. lvlatt1 lvlatt1 is offline

    San Diego, CA
    United States

    Posts: 617
    Joined: Mar 07

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 11:21am) in reply to Babooyah

    Call and hi-five your monitor when they both have AK soooooooted. Then break computer when they both end up with flush draws on turn, only to hit an Ace on the river. :)
  3. MaitreD MaitreD is offline

    Posts: 516
    Joined: Mar 07

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 1:08pm) in reply to Babooyah

    I think you assuming Havienko "has a real hand" is a mistake. Yes, it is possible. Hell, it is even likely. But if he is "capable of making moves," surely he is smart enough to realize that he has a shot at scaring away an EP raiser with an isolation move. If he has previously seen you lay down hands after raising them, his squeeze bet becomes pretty powerful. To be honest, it looks to me like we can range him anywhere from 88+, AJ+. If he can scare you out of the pot, he is betting 16k to win almot 22k.
    As to Sandman, it is hard to accurately range him since his M is around 8. He is not short enough to be desperate, but . . . again, depending on the frequency with which you raised/folded (or other EP raisers did, for that matter), his range would broaden or narrow.
    All in all, I would say that Jacks would be a borderline call here. But for me, considering you have both well covered and if you manage to win the sidepot against hovienko you come out nearly even, this is a must call.
  4. gutshtallin gutshtallin is offline

    Posts: 1,238
    Joined: Oct 07

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 1:49pm) in reply to Babooyah

    This is a very tough spot..Unfortunately Hovienko is not shoving very light here, i would assume JJ+ I understand that folding QQ is usually a very tough thing to do, however you have to look at the pot..You have 3k invested 41k behind, and a reraise, re-reraise in front of you. Folding isn't the worst thing to do here. I understand a call, however far too often you are up against KK AA in a spot like this, unless you have a some serious reads on Sandman and Hovienko. I would like to see the rest of the hand history, however this looks like KK from Kovienko or AK...So either you are a 4-1 dog or racing. I would consider folding here, although there is a good debate for calling too. Your stack is healthy, and the action in front is extremely strong..

    Rest of hand history??
     11
  5. Babooyah Babooyah is offline

    Posts: 122
    Joined: Nov 06

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 2:43pm) in reply to gutshtallin

    I almost puked

    pokerstars Game #14950299641: Tournament #75078470, $300+$20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2008/01/31 - 01:38:19 (ET)
    Table '75078470 23' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: deuces85 (20900 in chips)
    Seat 2: Babooyah (43961 in chips)
    Seat 3: sandman651 (16726 in chips)
    Seat 4: FatalError (26437 in chips)
    Seat 5: hovienko (24940 in chips)
    Seat 6: Sooners (98770 in chips)
    Seat 7: P0KERDUUDE (72735 in chips)
    Seat 8: Butch3030 (28501 in chips)
    Seat 9: Bonds252525 (42404 in chips)
    deuces85: posts the ante 60
    Babooyah: posts the ante 60
    sandman651: posts the ante 60
    FatalError: posts the ante 60
    hovienko: posts the ante 60
    Sooners: posts the ante 60
    P0KERDUUDE: posts the ante 60
    Butch3030: posts the ante 60
    Bonds252525: posts the ante 60
    Butch3030: posts small blind 600
    Bonds252525: posts big blind 1200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Babooyah [Qs Qd]
    deuces85: folds
    hovienko said, "THAT FLOP SICKED"
    Babooyah: raises 1860 to 3060
    sandman651: raises 13606 to 16666 and is all-in
    FatalError: folds
    hovienko: raises 8214 to 24880 and is all-in
    Sooners: folds
    P0KERDUUDE: folds
    Butch3030: folds
    Bonds252525: folds
    Babooyah: calls 21820
    *** FLOP *** [Jc Jd Ah]
    *** TURN *** [Jc Jd Ah] [Ad]
    P0KERDUUDE said, "ooof"
    *** RIVER *** [Jc Jd Ah Ad] [3s]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Babooyah: shows [Qs Qd] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
    hovienko: shows [Qh Qc] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
    Babooyah collected 8214 from side pot
    hovienko collected 8214 from side pot
    sandman651: shows [Jh Js] (four of a kind, Jacks)
    sandman651 collected 52338 from main pot
    hovienko said, "that is incredible"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 68766 Main pot 52338. Side pot 16428. | Rake 0
    Board [Jc Jd Ah Ad 3s]
    Seat 1: deuces85 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: Babooyah showed [Qs Qd] and won (8214) with two pair, Aces and Queens
    Seat 3: sandman651 showed [Jh Js] and won (52338) with four of a kind, Jacks
    Seat 4: FatalError folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: hovienko showed [Qh Qc] and won (8214) with two pair, Aces and Queens
    Seat 6: Sooners folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: P0KERDUUDE (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Butch3030 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: Bonds252525 (big blind) folded before Flop
     
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  6. Babooyah Babooyah is offline

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    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 2:46pm) in reply to gutshtallin

    I'm not complainig about the suckout, but I dunno calling there is +ev.

    Kovienko's reshove just bothers that hell outta me cause i really can't beat much that's in his range. (JJ+, AK)
     
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  7. chicagocards1 chicagocards1 is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

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    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 2:50pm) in reply to Babooyah

    i probably call there more times than not
  8. gutshtallin gutshtallin is offline

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    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 3:35pm) in reply to Babooyah

    I agree with you here Babooyah...Unfortunately his range is very tight and QQ is towards the bottom of it. In hindsight you made a good call and got unlucky. More times than not, he flips KK or AA. The only thing that does lead me towards a fold is the fact that you don't have much invested...only 3k invested and two others who have raised and reraised. Kovienko is doing this with QQ at worse i think...I don't even think he makes that call with JJ. Anyway, you made a good call and got sucked out on...

    good luck and that is an interesting spot.

    It would be interestign to see if this call is +EV....pokerstove anyone?
     11
  9. Babooyah Babooyah is offline

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    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 3:46pm) in reply to chicagocards1

    oh hi
     
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  10. MaitreD MaitreD is offline

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    Joined: Mar 07

    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 4:46pm) in reply to gutshtallin

    I assigned the following ranges. Assuming that the first shove range is somewhat looser than the second (which may or may not be accurate if the second shover is squeezing), I assigned 88+, AJ+ to the first player and a tighter range of JJ+, AQ to Hovienko. Against that range--which is probably tighter than I would expect for the first player, and pretty accurate for Kovienko--queens fare pretty well. Even though we only have 3k invested, it seems to be with two relative shorties involved (at least they can't decimate our stack), a call is required here.
    I think it is a bad assumption that the shove, reshove automatically indicates AA/KK. In this day of loose aggression and awareness of isolation, both ranges are somewhat looser than people realize, I would think. To make this a bad call, you would have to say Hovienko is only reshipping here with either KK or AA ONLY. That is unreasonable, so a call is a must.

    21,021,883,344 games -1161608.044 secs games/sec

    Board:

    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied

    Hand 0: 24.444% 22.74% 01.70% 4780787940 357749032.00 { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }

    Hand 1: 35.665% 33.47% 02.19% 7036716156 460766938.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }

    Hand 2: 39.891% 38.74% 01.15% 8144781444 241081834.00 { QQ }

    Even tightening up Hovienko to QQ+, AK ONLY, I think a call is still dictated because of the pot odds. And this range is certainly far too tight IMO:

    13,915,894,608 games 20.259 secs 686,899,383 games/sec

    Board:

    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied

    Hand 0: 21.074% 18.98% 02.09% 2641288284 291409468.00 { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }

    Hand 1: 44.761% 41.88% 02.89% 5827282116 401603848.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

    Hand 2: 34.165% 32.73% 01.43% 4554951120 199359772.00 { QQ }
  11. gutshtallin gutshtallin is offline

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    Feb 1st, 2008 (2/1/2008 6:36pm) in reply to MaitreD

    I disagree with calling hovienko a shorty..he has 20bbs at this point and you can definitely take AQ out of his reshoving range there.. There is a good shot the he might even muck JJ. However this decision would have to be based on player reads also..if hoveinko is tight..i fold. His range can be tightened to QQ KK or AA--haven't played with him to know if he goes with AKsuited..I dont fault callin or folding however...against a donk field...qq is an insta call..in this more skilled field..QQ is not good very often here.
     11
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