i think that MonkeyCowboy wrote a few things about the sats and the 36r he said he would not rebuy but always add on at the end. Also, i think you are trying to play for good value in the 36r and not go nutz as the rebuy is a 6th of the buy in already. so i don't see that much value if you rebuy once in the beginning and then add on (that's half of the direct buy in). Just as the regular 36 sat, you are trying to spend the minimum amount.

Right thats sorta my point n question cuz it seems like even adding on could be cut out. Now certain times for sure you will run bad that first hour and maybe have a stack of 2k or less in which instance you should prob always add on. But in a situation where you have X number of chips after the 1st hour....I'd say 2500 is still comfortable to not addon. Depends on your style i guess but basically with the blinds at 75/150 you still have some room although it would be a grind. And certainly if you have a stack of say 4k+ after the 1st hour I see no need for the add on being that is a sat and you have plently of chips still relative to the blinds and can certainly continue to chip up with small pots. The 36r's just seem very profitable (even in monkeys example with rebuys or adding on more often) so my thinking was just how difficult of a grind and actually doable it would be to play them simply on $36 with so much value in the # of seats available.

Thanks for the response Monkey. Seems reasonable enough when you consider not wanting to play many hands...2k chips is a big plus. I havent played them as much as you though so Im not sure how close you are to a seat after the 1st hour but i guess it depends on style of play. I'd be comfortable playing 1 or 2 more pots which is realistically all you are being pressed for if you have an 6k stack as compared to 8k for example. I think it be something to experiment with atleast. I might run some of these this way with some strict rules n then same # with a little more freedom to rebuy or addon & see how it turns out. I think both can be done very profitably with the right style of play.

Loved the article, satellites are my favorite tournaments. I do disagree about the $3r though. Back when they ran them all the time as normal tournaments and not turbos, it was the only way I was making steady money. Sigh, I miss those tournies.

The bear analogy was very fitting. Thanks for the words of wisdom.

I actually disagree with setting a limit on the number of rebuys. I think it's clear that there's a lot less incentive to gamble in the $36R sats than there is in say a $3R, where you need to build a stack. Let's say that something like this happens:

You lose 4 all ins in the first level, none of which are due to you doing anything wrong (get all in as a favorite or in some other unavoidable situation). Since you should generally be playing very tight in these and not getting out of line or bluffing a lot, it seems unlikely that you'll often get in this situation, but when you do, unless you're steaming or have some other sort of mental/psychological problem with continuing, there's not a mathematical benefit to quitting. In fact, even if you're already in for more than $215, quitting is a much worse EV than rebuying. This is assuming you're a winning player to begin, of course---putting any money in is -EV if you're a losing player.

Now I assume the idea in setting a limit is to keep yourself from going crazy with gambling/rebuying, and I definitely agree with that. However, I think it's mathematically more viable to just play as if you have a limit but not actually set one. Otherwise, every time you have spent $180 (5 buys) and bust, your expectation (non-variant) is going to be -180 for the tourney. By rebuying at that point, your expectation will be a lot better than that, though almost certainly still negative for the tournament.

As long as you always play tight and try to limit your number of rebuys, your long term average will still stay low, probably around three, which is very important for staying profitable.

Good post Adam. Totally agree with once your in you cant quit concept and that being -EV in itself. I think what I had the issue with was either double rebuy at beginning or add-on after 1st hour which both in many instances could be cut back in order to be more profitable. Other than that I didnt mean if I were to get knocked out im not going to rebuy ever.

I'm not sure how I feel about double rebuying. The biggest problem with it is that it makes your minimum amount spent 3 buy ins. That's going to make it extremely hard to maintain an acceptable average (I think 3 buy ins is probably the what I'd consider an acceptable average).

Adam,

Though I see where your coming from, I wonder, are most people reading this article going to take 4 good losses and still be mentally playing their best poker? For the best players, this might make sense. But, sometimes you are tilting and don't realize it right away, wouldn't putting a rebuy limit at least cap your losses.

As you put it, if you take 4 tough losses, you lost $180. At least you are capped at only losing $180, instead of potentially losing more than you hoped to win when you started.

we are also talking about a rebuy tourney that has a fixed amount of winners and the prize is all the same for all winners. Having said that, of course you don't want to invest too much such that your winning are less of what you put in. So ideally i'd think that investing as little as possible would be the way to go in order to be profitable just doing the mill sats tourneys.

On the other hand, for any regular re-buy tournament one should not have a set buy in amount. It should be clear that you do want to have as many chips as possible during the first hour and the amount spent could be potentially far less than what the prize pool and payouts are.

Thanks for this clarification. I was quite cofused at this suggestion upon reading your article. If no one else is doing it though it makes perfect sense. Great article. I use all of FPP for the SitNGO variety of Satts. However aftter reading this i think im going to try some of the MTT variety. Your bait has been devoured by me at least. Congrats.

I feel like some of you guys aren't picking up what Monkey and Adam are putting down. Maybe the way I'm processing what they mean can help you guys.

First, to the guy who said should a good player play Sats: A good player is stupid not to play Sats to bigger tournaments. Even the best of players, if they're still considering true EV, should play Sats rather than buy directly in to any higher event; as long as they know it's positive EV for them. If they can get into the event for less than what it costs to buy directly in, why wouldn't a person? Monkey is taking that concept and using it to pad his bankroll rather then playing the event. It makes perfect sense.

Second, Adam's idea of playing deeper into the tournament rather than having a stop loss in place. It's a really good idea in a sense, as long as you don't tilt the money off. I mean, think about it. If you're in for $147 (that's the initial buyin, 2 rebuys, and an expected addon) but you decide "Okay, I'm going to stop playing here I'm in for too much". But if you could keep your head on your shoulders and keep player your optimal game, and make that 3rd rebuy rather than bust out, you may be in for $183 (or $219 if you end up making a dreadful 4th rebuy) but if you can play optimally and chip away and chip up, and end up taking a seat, even if you're in for $219, you're only down $4. Whereas if you set your stop loss at $183, or even less, you're out that amount.

So by playing your tight-A game and finding situations where it works to your advantage to buyin a bit too much, it can actually work ouit in a positive manner. But it's just like anything else poker, picking spots where you think it's going to be effective. Which basically brings you full circle back to where Monkey began; doing what you feel comfortable with.

Thank you, I found this article very informative.

Adam, I think its about time for u to write another article.

first, id like to say MCs article owns. And Adams post here made me rethink a few things, such as even if iam in for 180, its best to not quit because iam throwing away too much money already. A 30$ loss is better than 180$ loss.

ANd fig, up until right now, in the 36r, Ive never added on, or rebought. When the rebuy period ends, usually 1 in 3 ppl win the seat. So personally, i like to think i can win atleast that often. As MC says tho, he plays for roi, so not quitting before rebuy ends is important. But, as MC says, proper strategy in these is to avoid confrontations, not play big pots, and not call big all ins preflop. I havent played a ton of these, but i am fine with having 1500-2000 in chips after the rebuy. I think ive been the bottom guy out of the gate a good amount since i dont add on either. The thing is, if ppl are avoiding confrontations, then those are the stacks to attack. 2k chips is a good amount to still have FE. Once it gets real close to the bubble, as a short stack I still like to attack the medium stacks blinds, because they usually dont defend much. I am not saying play like a loose cannon with a short stack, but picking up b/w 1-2 blinds each round isnt that tough.

With all that said, iam gonna see if my roi changes any when i start adding on. Gl.

Thank you very much for the article. I played my first $39 sat today and won entry into the Sunday Warm-Up

Sorry if sounds like a dense question, but how do you translate the T$ into actual money? I was told when I won the satellite seat that if I unregistered, it would be for T$ only. I know there's sites that will actully pay actual money for T$.

I have the same question. I thought I heard about a website where you could sell seats won, but I don't know where to find it (i thought i might have been through P5 but I can't find any links.

GL, Whit