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Response to the whole poker trainer stat thing

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  1. seal seal is offline

    Posts: 2,786
    Joined: Jan 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 7:24am)

    hey:

    A long time ago I wrote p5s first money management article mostly in response to what seemed like an epidemic of bad money handling. In it I asked the readers to decide why they play mtts – to make money, or to have fun. For the purpose of money management, this was the only distinction that mattered. I have however since found that I play mtts for many more reasons.

    Recently a few folks have questioned the DB stats for online poker teachers. I would like to respond to that by listing just a few of the reasons I play online tourneys.

    I am embarrassed to admit that my number one reason to play a tourney is that I have some time to kill. Often I have two hours or so before I need to go out and I will play a cheap tourney and when I need to leave I will either push every hand until I lose or let somebody else finish it. –DB

    The other night I was playing a tourney that I had just gotten into the money in. The bottom of the money paid next to squat, but there was some real money in the top three spots and I had an average stack. My wife came down and told me that if I could “drag myself away from the computer”, she’d be up and waiting for me. You bet I was all-in pretty fast. –DB

    Yesterday I had a student who watched me play a few tourneys while we were on the phone together. Over the course of about three hours together, I spent $40 on buy-ins. For my students’ $75 an hour, sometimes it is necessary that we lose a hand to make a point and I am always willing to do that. We lost three tourneys that way. –DB

    I have a few relations that love the game, but for obvious reasons do not love playing for play money. If I am not online at a particular site at that time, they are always free to play (within certain limits) on my account. –DB

    As has been mentioned, I teach poker. One difference between me and many other teachers is that I teach all the games. I take that responsibility very seriously and I am constantly trying to improve my game and try out new strategies. Last week I spend about 12 poker hours playing super LAG in a lot of PLO and O/8 tourneys. One entire weekend I played all my games with tape over the screen. –DB

    In order to make entertaining teaching videos, sometimes I try experiments. As an example, the other day I took advantage of the new loophole in dise’s thinking and joined a $30 rebuy tourney at the last second of the first hour and then tried to make the money. I am very proud of the fact that I was able to do it and even had a shot at a big stack at the end. You can watch the video on realpokertraining.com next month, but over the long run these experiments are definitely –DB.

    And yet, with all this and more weighing on me, you expect me to worry about my overall stats?? Lmao! The only stat I worry about is this: Bottom line – Did I make money this month? Or this year? And since I don’t tell my wife, my mother, my best friend, and my cat exactly what I make, why should I tell you?

    Have a nice day and gl at the tables.

    seal
  2. beauright beauright is offline

    Saint Petersburg, FL
    United States

    Posts: 1,637
    Joined: Jun 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 8:21am) in reply to seal

    Well said Seal.

    First of all, I'm not a trainer/teacher/coach by any means.

    "Don't bite the hand that feeds you!" ---Sheets and many others alike offer GREAT information that will help improve ANYONE'S game.

    I have played with people that know the game like no other, the math, the strategy, the styles, etc., etc., but in the end they aren't winning players usually. That doesn't mean that they can't offer great advice, tips, or discussions.

    That being said, these guys don't need to 'proove' their success to anyone. If you don't want to learn from them, DON'T SIGN UP FOR THEIR TRAINING! I would argue that this is simply stupidity.

    for example, Gidders at one point offered a training site that more or less taught low limit SNGs. Gidders isn't ranked, no one knows if the stats he posted were real, but all of this didn't matter because----GIDDERS TAUGHT A SOUND PHILOSOPHY AND DID IT WELL! No one can argue that he offered an interesting and often very profitable strategy for low limit SNGs. Did you have to sign up for his site? No, I didn't, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have learned something.

    I would like to thank the people that take the time to help teach others. You lose a chance a bigger payouts by spending time doing this. Yes, this money provides a stable cash flow, but most of you are good enough to make much more than this just playing.
    Thank you

    for what it's worth,
    beauright
  3. seal seal is offline

    Posts: 2,786
    Joined: Jan 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 12:07pm) in reply to beauright

    tyvm beau.

    And I agree 100%, because as a schoolteacher,
    I can tell you, the only time you get thanked is
    years and years down the road.
    Thread Starter
  4. TheloneousPunk TheloneousPunk is offline

    Japan

    Posts: 58
    Joined: Jun 06

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 2:17pm) in reply to seal

    "My wife came down and told me that if I could “drag myself away from the computer”, she’d be up and waiting for me. You bet I was all-in pretty fast. –DB"

    LMAO. Good choice!

    Since I was one of the main participants in that set of threads, I want to clarify that my questions really center around how a propsective student can determine if a poker instructor is really a good instructor teaching techniques that work well over the long run. Stats are an objective means of helping someone figure that out, though they can obviously be misleading in some circumstances. Word of mouth also helps, but I think we all know that word of mouth can be deceiving. I've enjoyed all your videos on RPT, seal, and think you are a great instructor. I'd like to see more PLO tourney videos from you! And if you feel you have any competence in Stud/8, I'd love to see that too.
  5. gbmantis gbmantis is offline

    Waukesha, WI
    United States

    Posts: 7,413
    Joined: May 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 2:29pm) in reply to TheloneousPunk

    I disagree with what seal says.

    He is a good teacher, and he helped my game early in my poker career, but I do think that if you are going to teach poker, your stats should be scrutinized. As poker players, we are judged on how much we win. That is our scorecard.

    I think it is only fair to the students we teach that we open up our records at least some just to establish credibility, if nothing else. I just dont see why people want to hide their stats if they are teaching. And when I say this, I am not referring to sheets' sharkscope, b/c I am fairly certain those are inaccurate numbers.

    But I think that if you are going to put yourself out there as a teacher of the game, that you should show at least some of your stats. For sheets and bax, they are the best mtt players online, just go check their DB. Taylor Caby has some sick pokertracker stats for his 25/50nl im sure, or whatever he plays.
    And I'm sure seal has a gross ROI in the plo tournies or other tournies he plays, but I think you are doing your students a disservice by hiding your facts.

    Just my two cents.

    -mantis
    1
  6. Fox Fox is offline

    Posts: 2,686
    Joined: Apr 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 2:46pm) in reply to seal

    Seal is definitely a good teacher and a fine player, and he taught me some things about Omaha a while back that were very useful. I occasionally end up blowing off a tournament or losing a hand because of a student, but only very rarely, and so far it hasn't had a lot of effect on my stats.

    Seal has a point, and Sheets has said the same thing, that no one has a right to his finances. Unfortunately we teachers have to remember that some people will in fact judge us by our stats, and not keeping htem up will certainly hurt your status in some people's eyes. If you arleaedy ahve as many students as you can handle and are being paid well for them then there's no need to worry about something that may be holding some students back anyway.

    I get $100 an hour for my lessons, along with getting sign ups for my site, so I certainly want to keep my stats as high as possible. If people see my sharkscope stats and see that I am playing a fairly low average buy-in I can certainyl tell them that I teach as well as making videos for my site, but I know that a few people will think I am a less serious player because of it. It's all a trade off for us, and honestly I don't think very many people consider stats anyway.

    I was thinking about it last night while I made a few micro-limit SNG videos for PokerFox.net and how my average buy-in on sharkscope is pretty low compared to what I would paly if I were just playing for my own profit. There's really not much we can do about it, but people like you and I have nothing to fear Seal. We play very well, we teach well, and our students come back and bring their friends. I have as many students as I can handle, and I know you do too, so there isn't much for us to worry about.
  7. Marlow Marlow is offline

    Herndon, VA
    United States

    Posts: 26
    Joined: Feb 06

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 4:32pm) in reply to seal

    I agree with Seal has said, but I do think that there is some middle ground. For example, a person teaching MTTs could have a page showing a listing several of tournaments in which he has had final table appearances. Therefore, it would not give a current view of that person's finances, but would show an established track record in MTTs.
  8. Rocket Surgeon Rocket Surgeon is offline & brain scientist

    United States

    Posts: 12,012
    Joined: Apr 05

    Jun 30th, 2006 (6/30/2006 5:01pm) in reply to seal

    I don't feel that coaches should be judged on their stats, but that is for another time right now.

    The fact is that people are always going to have your stats (its the internet, thats how this works) and that all the teachers need to work around that some way. If you feel that your 'lower then usual' stats are good enough (I think they are), then don't worry about it. But if you feel that it is hurting your business then you can always make a secondary account to "mess around on" and then have a primary accout to play seriously on and show off your stats.

    I personally think that your stats are probably fine the way they are. if you are a good teacher then your reputation will carry you along. After hearing people's opinions on this board, it certainly does for you seal.
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