I think raising the flop will give you more information about his hand. if he come over i think it should be a pretty easy fold, but if he just flats you can re-eval the turn

ugh. plz delte this thread. this hand gives me nightmares. i played it so poorly i wanted to puke after it happened

The betting pattern just didnt sit right and I just couldnt get the flush draw out of my head as a huge possibility given the donklead, check/call pattern....I am not posting this hand to criticize you grip...The bet was really strong and despite a strong gut feeling I used half my timebank at least and hovered the mouse over the fold button twice before closing my eyes and calling....I am asking if it was only a "good call" b/c of the result. I checked your pokerdb before flatting your flop bet and saw you were a good player, so I knew you wouldnt be in there with total crap....but that also told me you wouldnt be afraid to put your entire stack in on a bluff deep in this tournament like a lot of players would be. If you had checkraised the turn I'd have folded. If you had checkraised the flop I'd have probably folded just because all I beat is a flush draw and if it has 2 overs its a favorite over me.

I really want to know if given the read on the betting pattern and a strong gut feeling that 77 was good, top players risk this stack on a call like this with 20 left and an above average stack....lilholdem and annette15 use position better than just about anyone out there and I'm trying to make that one of my strongpoints....so I wonder specifically would lilholdem or annette15 call in this spot?

Hand #334

pokerstars Game #15436925125: Tournament #77445228, $25.00+$2.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (3000/6000) - 2008/02/21 - 00:56:25 (ET)
Table '77445228 92' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: PlzBelieveMe (288341 in chips)
Seat 2: oliquebec (600427 in chips)
Seat 3: cubsguy17 (179876 in chips)
Seat 4: white&nerdy0 (236074 in chips)
Seat 5: GripDsNutz (254361 in chips)
Seat 6: gpoker (195952 in chips)
Seat 9: welshFARg0 (373081 in chips)
PlzBelieveMe: posts the ante 600
oliquebec: posts the ante 600
cubsguy17: posts the ante 600
white&nerdy0: posts the ante 600
GripDsNutz: posts the ante 600
gpoker: posts the ante 600
welshFARg0: posts the ante 600
white&nerdy0: posts small blind 3000
GripDsNutz: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to welshFARg0 [7d 7c]
gpoker: folds
oliquebec said, ": )"
welshFARg0: raises 10954 to 16954
PlzBelieveMe: folds
oliquebec: folds
cubsguy17: folds
white&nerdy0: folds
GripDsNutz: calls 10954
*** FLOP *** [3h Jc 3c]
GripDsNutz: bets 21260
welshFARg0: calls 21260
*** TURN *** [3h Jc 3c] [4h]
GripDsNutz: checks
welshFARg0: bets 37455
GripDsNutz: calls 37455
*** RIVER *** [3h Jc 3c 4h] [8s]
GripDsNutz: bets 178092 and is all-in
welshFARg0: calls 178092
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GripDsNutz: shows [Kc Qc] (a pair of Threes)
welshFARg0: shows [7d 7c] (two pair, Sevens and Threes)
welshFARg0 collected 514722 from pot
oliquebec said, "nice call"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 514722 | Rake 0
Board [3h Jc 3c 4h 8s]
Seat 1: PlzBelieveMe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: oliquebec folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: cubsguy17 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: white&nerdy0 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: GripDsNutz (big blind) showed [Kc Qc] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 6: gpoker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: welshFARg0 showed [7d 7c] and won (514722) with two pair, Sevens and Threes

its funny you say youve wrestled with this hand because i def have as well. my line was terrible and ill give you some thoughts as to why i decided to take the line i did.

i lead the flop because both of us are very deep and i wanted to get em all in on the flop. i donk lead into you hoping to get raised so i can ship em all in with a 3 bet. i figured that was the only way im taking this pot down on the flop. if i decided to check/raise this flop. and you 3 bet me all in, i wouldve had to fold and that is not what i wanted obv. quite frankly your flop flat call (fwiw i think is pretty bad conisdering you had no info whatsoever) threw everything off for me. and i obv shouldve just fired again on the turn or even check raised the turn. for some reason i flat you on the turn because your bet is one that def gives me odds to draw here, and i think im just going to check fold the river leaving myself a 30 bb stack if i missed. well for some reason my thinking changed once the river card hit. i figured i had a pot sized bet left on the river and i could ship it in and get way with it. i was wrong, and i really made a terrible move on so many levels. A) i had no reads on you whatsoever nor did you have any on me, i was just moved to the table and this was my first hand there. so i have no clue how youve been playing up to this point. B) my line simply made no sense. there is nothing i can really be repping here besides 88. i think you made a very good call and deserved that pot.

if you had DBed me and seen i was a good player, i would imagine it would be an easier fold because i would never put my chips in on a complete bluff like this. this was a spot where i was a little tilty and made a very poor play. the fact i was 40+ bbs deep and up against an oppoent OOP who had me out chipped really made me make some bad decisions here. usually the hand would play out by me check raising this flop, almost hoping for a flat call, then shipping the turn at which point you prob snap fold.

i lost sleep over the way i played this hand that night and i def wont be making this mistake again.

I dont think flatting a bet of less than half the pot on this flop in position with these deep stacks is anything but the most optimal play on that floop with 77.

Raising is turning my hand into a bluff...it will never fold out a better h and except 88-1010....but will scare out all the hands I beat....and it opens me up to the weapon you wanted to use...the lead/4bet shove w/ a flush draw and 2 overs....I do know that line and dont want to take myself out of the hand with deep stacks, and postion and a probable best hand given your odd flop lead.

Folding to that flop bet on that board w/ 77 in positon is out of the question and is basically spewy and weak.

No other option but to call the flop.

ur right. im just salty. as i said before i played this hand about as poor as i possibly could. im a donk. nh