Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

scoop 37 M deal negotiation

Reply to Thread
  1. eri eri is offline

    Borgerhout
    Belgium

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jul 05

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:26am)

    Ok so this one is too dumb for words

    4 left

    Standard payout:

    211 k
    157 k
    110 k
    76 k

    stars guy works out the numbers and comes back with this deal:

    206 k
    116 k
    115 k
    103 k

    With 15 k to play for, which gives the guy in the lead a potential win of 221 k .. lol ...

    The guy currently in second asks for 133 k or no deal, guy in third says i'll give u 5 k. So in essence the guy in first needs to
    give him 12 k more.

    If he does does he'll have 194 k guaranteed with 15 k to play for, so possibly 209 k total

    And he says NO ?

    Its amazing how goddamn braindead some people winning these tourneys are.
  2. nickh nickh is offline International Stalker

    Posts: 2,266
    Joined: Mar 08

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:35am) in reply to eri

    lol that is awesome, who was the CL at the time? and how many chips did he have?
  3. eri eri is offline

    Borgerhout
    Belgium

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jul 05

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:41am) in reply to nickh

    Was like 33 m 11 m 11 m 7 m at the time. CL name is shuriken555. He will probably win regardless but if he does lose, way to self own for potentially 100 k +
    Thread Starter
  4. nickh nickh is offline International Stalker

    Posts: 2,266
    Joined: Mar 08

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:44am) in reply to eri

    Ya he's still got a pretty dominate lead, they're doing numbers again now, guy in 3rd place wants shuriken to give up some of his though
  5. ABorges ABorges is offline

    Sines
    Portugal

    Posts: 272
    Joined: Jul 08

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:53am) in reply to eri

    Wow, just sucked out 88>99 for chiplead pot. Going heads up with over 6-1 lead...

    This really shows how unfair it can be to shortstacks in chip chop deals.
  6. eri eri is offline

    Borgerhout
    Belgium

    Posts: 220
    Joined: Jul 05

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 7:59am) in reply to ABorges

    The most comical part of it all is that he now accepts a deal for 186 k which is less than he wouldve had giving in on the first deal Self own ftw
    Thread Starter
  7. MastaP89 MastaP89 is offline

    Austria

    Posts: 1,808
    Joined: Apr 08

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 8:12am) in reply to eri

    http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...3A10C.html?t=8

    just makes me feel bitter...
    1 
  8. lukaluka05 lukaluka05 is offline

    S San Fran, CA
    United States

    Posts: 757
    Joined: Mar 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 10:22am) in reply to MastaP89

     
    Originally Posted by MastaP89 View Post

    http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/pokerstars/Had+to+be/poker/statistics/3D094596E4D44A88BABCF3E2FA73A10C.html?t=8

    just makes me feel bitter...

    Dude that is a sample size of 45 mtts....I wouldn't read too much into it....
  9. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

    Niagara Falls, NY
    United States

    Posts: 10,222
    Joined: Nov 05

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 12:18pm) in reply to eri

    Wow, with the stacks of 33m/11m/11m/7m, the stars' guy came back with numbers of 200k 116k 115k 103k???? If that's true, that's crazy. If I was one of the bottom three players, I'd be VERY pissed about that, not only because it's an egregious error, but because it kills any negotiation power you might have.

    A fair deal is 176k/131k/131k/114k per ICM.

    Where the hell do they come up with these numbers?

    I've always been a proponent of a site suggesting chop numbers. Whenever I enter a deal situation, I tell the stars mod to NOT provide numbers and they always do anyway, and that's really annoying to me because it kills my negotiation ability.

    Anyway, I agree with the OP. Turning down 194k + a 57%ish shot at 15k more is a HUGE mistake in that scenario, regardless of your opponent's ability.

    Nonetheless, it's crazy that they don't just have a deal button and let the players work it out already. I mean how amateurish is it to ask players to sit out while the clock is running and work out a deal. That's insano. Stars has said in the past that a deal button seems like a suggestion and that's why they won't do it, but giving out chip chop numbers is way more than a suggestion, so that doesn't make sense.

    Program the deal button into the system already, and don't suggest numbers unless all parties agree to it.
  10. Mr Galt Mr Galt is offline sister-in-law's a ho

    Overland Park, KS
    United States

    Posts: 9,097
    Joined: Nov 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 12:51pm) in reply to Jennifear

    Deal button should work like the skip break button. If 100% of the players push it then it pauses the trny. That would be infinitely better than having one player losing equity while trying to compose an email. It should also then automatically summon a deal making mod too.
  11. slapshot slapshot is offline

    Albany, NY
    United States

    Posts: 1,573
    Joined: Feb 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 3:05pm) in reply to Jennifear

     
    Originally Posted by Jennifear View Post

    Wow, with the stacks of 33m/11m/11m/7m, the stars' guy came back with numbers of 200k 116k 115k 103k???? If that's true, that's crazy. If I was one of the bottom three players, I'd be VERY pissed about that, not only because it's an egregious error, but because it kills any negotiation power you might have.

    A fair deal is 176k/131k/131k/114k per ICM.

    Where the hell do they come up with these numbers?

    Each player gets = (4th place money) + (% chips in play) * (remaining prize pool)

    This...

    http://www.nltexasholdem.com/chip-ch...calculator.php
  12. njw11 njw11 is offline

    Akron, OH
    United States

    Posts: 749
    Joined: Jun 08

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 4:01pm) in reply to Jennifear

     
    Originally Posted by Jennifear View Post

    Wow, with the stacks of 33m/11m/11m/7m, the stars' guy came back with numbers of 200k 116k 115k 103k???? If that's true, that's crazy. If I was one of the bottom three players, I'd be VERY pissed about that, not only because it's an egregious error, but because it kills any negotiation power you might have.

    A fair deal is 176k/131k/131k/114k per ICM.

    Where the hell do they come up with these numbers?

    I've always been a proponent of a site suggesting chop numbers. Whenever I enter a deal situation, I tell the stars mod to NOT provide numbers and they always do anyway, and that's really annoying to me because it kills my negotiation ability.

    Anyway, I agree with the OP. Turning down 194k + a 57%ish shot at 15k more is a HUGE mistake in that scenario, regardless of your opponent's ability.

    Nonetheless, it's crazy that they don't just have a deal button and let the players work it out already. I mean how amateurish is it to ask players to sit out while the clock is running and work out a deal. That's insano. Stars has said in the past that a deal button seems like a suggestion and that's why they won't do it, but giving out chip chop numbers is way more than a suggestion, so that doesn't make sense.

    Program the deal button into the system already, and don't suggest numbers unless all parties agree to it.

    Its so dumb that this is what you have to do. I mean blinds raise and the tournys not going to resume where it left off wither giving people more of less chips then when they first started sitting out. It just dosent make sense.
     
  13. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

    Cambridge, MA
    United States

    Posts: 4,520
    Joined: Sep 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 4:18pm) in reply to slapshot

     
    Originally Posted by slapshot View Post


    Each player gets = (4th place money) + (% chips in play) * (remaining prize pool)

    This...

    http://www.nltexasholdem.com/chip-ch...calculator.php

    Yup- they give you the chip chop.

    What I can never figure out how to do is how you figure out the ICM numbers when stars makes you leave money aside to play for. To do the math you have to know where the money to play for is coming from. Is it all taken off first place? Taken evenly from all places above first? Or I guess what makes sense is taking it off each place above the last one to be paid based on the % of the pool they are supposed to get?
     
  14. tammypoker01 tammypoker01 is offline

    New York, NY
    United States

    Posts: 1,013
    Joined: Mar 06

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 4:24pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    recompute the prize pool minus money to set aside for?
  15. CSU_Shark CSU_Shark is offline

    North Highlands, CA
    United States

    Posts: 550
    Joined: Nov 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 4:25pm) in reply to slapshot

     
    Originally Posted by slapshot View Post

    Each player gets = (4th place money) + (% chips in play) * (remaining prize pool)

    This...

    http://www.nltexasholdem.com/chip-ch...calculator.php

    thanks for the insight, im sure Jennifear wasn't asking a rhetorical question.
    <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
  16. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

    Niagara Falls, NY
    United States

    Posts: 10,222
    Joined: Nov 05

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 5:25pm) in reply to CSU_Shark

     
    Originally Posted by CSU_Shark View Post

    thanks for the insight, im sure Jennifear wasn't asking a rhetorical question.
    <INPUT id=gwProxy type=hidden><INPUT id=jsProxy onclick=jsCall(); type=hidden>

    I just threw the numbers in there and all I have to say is that calculator is a complete joke. To say that 33m is entitled to 206k is insano because there's no way that if it's played out every time, even with his immense leverage, that he would average more than 190k, and 190k is a very high guess. If this is the formula that stars is using to calculate chops, I'd be very happy if they used that method while I was a huge chipleader, and I'd hope that my opponents were stupid enough to fall for it.
  17. EyeKnows EyeKnows is online now

    Posts: 6,647
    Joined: Sep 06

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 5:29pm) in reply to eri

    unfucking real, fix this if you cannot have staff do it correctly, sfbad.

    and lol @ the dude turning down the better offer earlier and taking a worse one later.

    I wanna play some poker now.
  18. TpocketT TpocketT is offline

    Posts: 2,478
    Joined: Jun 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 5:44pm) in reply to eri

    Wow, I never really looked into this too much, but its INSANE how bad chip based chopping is now that I look at it. If the CL had like 55% or more of the chips in play, he would end up with more than first place money in this 4 way chop example for this tourney.
  19. slapshot slapshot is offline

    Albany, NY
    United States

    Posts: 1,573
    Joined: Feb 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 6:37pm) in reply to Jennifear

    Yes, that is the same formula that stars uses and has always used. It's definitely retarded and skewed toward the chip leader, especially if you have a huge stack. As TpocketT already said, if you have a big enough chip lead, the chip chop formula actually gives MORE than 1st place money to the chip leader, el oh fucking el. Pretty sure there have been threads started about that in the past where it actually happened.

    ICM numbers obv make more sense.
  20. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

    Cambridge, MA
    United States

    Posts: 4,520
    Joined: Sep 07

    May 17th, 2010 (5/17/2010 6:54pm) in reply to Jennifear

     
    Originally Posted by Jennifear View Post

    I just threw the numbers in there and all I have to say is that calculator is a complete joke. To say that 33m is entitled to 206k is insano because there's no way that if it's played out every time, even with his immense leverage, that he would average more than 190k, and 190k is a very high guess. If this is the formula that stars is using to calculate chops, I'd be very happy if they used that method while I was a huge chipleader, and I'd hope that my opponents were stupid enough to fall for it.

    Jen- the calculator is correct. It's the stars chip chop. I replicated it in excel and got the same numbers as when I ran that calculator.

    As long as stars is telling people it is a chip chop number I don't see what the problem is.
    They do say that people are obviously allowed to negotiate their own numbers.

    If you know how to do the ICM numbers and your opponents don't know them then you are better equipped to negotiate anyway. And if they stubbornly refuse to budge off of chip chops and are not people who know what ICM even means then there isn't much you could do anyway.

    FTP gives you both chip and ICM. People that don't understand the difference will argue for whatever number looks better for *them*.
     
Reply to Thread