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Shove 17bb in million here terrible?

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  1. Fisheye25 Fisheye25 is offline

    Aventura, FL
    United States

    Posts: 16
    Joined: Nov 06

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:13pm)

    This spot came up in the million today. I am just a recreational tournament player - I mostly play cash. I made this shove and bunch of people I've discussed this with told me this is horrendous and I've gotten mixed responses that I should have either raise/folded or folded PF. I personally didn't think raise/folding was great with 17bb so I guess raise calling could have worked. Best move here?

    pokerstars Game #23580642323: Tournament #129730961, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (2000/4000) - 2009/01/04 20:36:48 ET

    Table '129730961 159' 9-max Seat #2 is the button

    Seat 1: kasey_gcp (216856 in chips)

    Seat 2: bayernfan88 (73286 in chips)

    Seat 3: greygoose17 (32700 in chips)

    Seat 4: heater4321 (172943 in chips)

    Seat 5: Ace7Off (105956 in chips)

    Seat 6: terpsbaby (45511 in chips)

    Seat 7: 99NvrLosez (337426 in chips)

    Seat 8: Fisheye25 (70536 in chips)

    Seat 9: ManUfan82 (28350 in chips)

    kasey_gcp: posts the ante 400

    bayernfan88: posts the ante 400

    greygoose17: posts the ante 400

    heater4321: posts the ante 400

    Ace7Off: posts the ante 400

    terpsbaby: posts the ante 400

    99NvrLosez: posts the ante 400

    Fisheye25: posts the ante 400

    ManUfan82: posts the ante 400

    greygoose17: posts small blind 2000

    heater4321: posts big blind 4000

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to Fisheye25 [7c 7d]

    Ace7Off: folds

    terpsbaby: folds

    99NvrLosez: folds

    Fisheye25: raises 66136 to 70136 and is all-in
     
  2. relderretep relderretep is offline

    Germany

    Posts: 321
    Joined: Jan 08

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:18pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    fine move considering there are a lot of chips in the middle with those antes already...
     
  3. CJDeman CJDeman is offline

    Sydney
    Australia

    Posts: 820
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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:18pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    Personally I raise to c. 10,800 and take it from there. If you do have to fold 15bb is still a decent re-steal stack.
     
  4. alexross1977 alexross1977 is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 263
    Joined: May 07

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:20pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    uh open 2.5x, see a flop. win money.

    does TT+ push here? nope, ak? maybe

    you're pretty much telling everyone i have 66-99 or ak

    see a flop ftw. then re-evaluate.

    OP, when u play cash are u a shortstacker of something?
  5. nuttedup nuttedup is offline

    Vacaville, CA
    United States

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:20pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    pretty sure this is +EV, but I think you make more money in the long run to raise/call.
  6. pez102 pez102 is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 131
    Joined: Mar 08

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 8:20pm) in reply to CJDeman

    raise call shove here.
    533 1
  7. teamshizz teamshizz is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
    United States

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    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 9:43pm) in reply to pez102

    wow what a terrible play.

    awful.
     
  8. Gags30 Gags30 is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 9:51pm) in reply to nuttedup

     
    Originally Posted by nuttedup View Post

    pretty sure this is +EV, but I think you make more money in the long run to raise/call.

    this 100%
    170 2 

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  9. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

    United States

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 9:56pm) in reply to CJDeman

     
    Originally Posted by CJDeman View Post

    Personally I raise to c. 10,800 and take it from there. If you do have to fold 15bb is still a decent re-steal stack.

    ur results are waaay better than mine but I think this is pretty terrible advice.

    raise call is prolly best. Open folding seems kinda meh. Shoving? idk. If you get called ur prolly only gonna be happy to see like two hands. maayyybe someone goes crazy and calls with aj, dunno

    One thing is certain in my mind, if ur gonna play this hand it needs to be for all ur chips. The reason I like raise calling a little better than open shoving is that it seems ppl are more inclined to reshove lighter than they would call off 17bbs thinking they have FE. everhyonce in a whle you'll catch some retard reshoving on you wiht 33.

    IMO raise/call>shoving>folding>raise/fold
  10. GrayFOX22 GrayFOX22 is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

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    Joined: Jun 07

    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:09pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    Yeah I would say raise folding would be terrible in this spot. I like raise calling because the blinds and LP should ship quite a wide range when they look at your stack. You will probably get a ship from weaker pairs more often by raise calling than if you open ship because of perceived FE.
     
  11. teamshizz teamshizz is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
    United States

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:11pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    guy to his left called him with KK btw
    it's important to show full hand history to emphasize he's only getting called by better 90% of the time

    gjsdfgnkjsd terrible
     
  12. MSU-ATO MSU-ATO is offline

    Morganfield, KY
    United States

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:32pm) in reply to teamshizz

    but the thing is he isnt getting called by anyone 90% of the time...and when he does his hand prolly had ~30-40% equity making this a profitable play

    showing the full HH causes ppl like the above poster to be results oriented...lol
  13. SEABEAST SEABEAST is offline

    Fitzroy
    Australia

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:45pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    very standard

    never fold pre, either openshove or raise/call
    14
  14. norcalonica norcalonica is offline

    Palo Alto, CA
    United States

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:51pm) in reply to SEABEAST

     
    Originally Posted by SEABEAST View Post

    very standard

    never fold pre, either openshove or raise/call

     
  15. paidchex paidchex is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:53pm) in reply to Fisheye25

    I did a little math and basically , if you think you will get called more than 1/3 of the time then no you shouldn't shove you should open fold but i doubt thats the case.
    Also with the antes, I think raising to 2.5 is bad unless noone on the table is flatting preflop raises. If everyone is 3betting or folding then I'm for raise to induce a shove from smaller pairs, otherwise openshove cause it would be -ev to risk getting flatted.
  16. shanetrain22 shanetrain22 is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2009 (1/4/2009 10:55pm) in reply to teamshizz

     
    Originally Posted by teamshizz View Post

    guy to his left called him with KK btw
    it's important to show full hand history to emphasize he's only getting called by better 90% of the time

    gjsdfgnkjsd terrible

    lololol

    r/c usually...
     1
  17. nowapowa nowapowa is offline

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 12:14am) in reply to paidchex

     
    Originally Posted by paidchex View Post

    I did a little math and basically , if you think you will get called more than 1/3 of the time then no you shouldn't shove you should open fold but i doubt thats the case.
    Also with the antes, I think raising to 2.5 is bad unless noone on the table is flatting preflop raises. If everyone is 3betting or folding then I'm for raise to induce a shove from smaller pairs, otherwise openshove cause it would be -ev to risk getting flatted.

    terms/show math
  18. nowapowa nowapowa is offline

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 12:17am) in reply to norcalonica

     
    Originally Posted by norcalonica View Post

     
    Originally Posted by SEABEAST View Post

    very standard

    never fold pre, either openshove or raise/call

  19. Fisheye25 Fisheye25 is offline

    Aventura, FL
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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 1:10am) in reply to Fisheye25

    ty for responses... Also something to note is that two of the stacks behind me were ~7-8bb stacks that I think have much wider ranges including all pairs etc... I still don't feel shoving was super bad but raise/calling seems to make most sense.
     
    Thread Starter
  20. AAeveryhand AAeveryhand is offline

    Fort Lauderdale, FL
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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 1:53am) in reply to Fisheye25

    Im actually suprised by the responses, Im pretty sure this is a shove all day long
     
  21. teamshizz teamshizz is offline

    Boca Raton, FL
    United States

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 2:15am) in reply to AAeveryhand

     
    Originally Posted by AAeveryhand View Post

    Im actually suprised by the responses, Im pretty sure this is a shove all day long

    meh
     
  22. hushpuckena hushpuckena is offline

    Natchez, MS
    United States

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 2:22am) in reply to Fisheye25

     
    Originally Posted by Fisheye25 View Post

    Also something to note is that two of the stacks behind me were ~7-8bb stacks that I think have much wider ranges including all pairs etc... I still don't feel shoving was super bad but raise/calling seems to make most sense.

    If you believe you can pick up the blinds/antes, fine; otherwise, I don't like the push here. The two short stacks are the problem for you, because they should be calling with hands such as AK-AT, which are only slight dogs to yours, as well as TT/99/88, which you can't beat at the moment.
  23. Hell_Capitan Hell_Capitan is offline

    Evanston, IL
    United States

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 4:15am) in reply to Fisheye25

    I raise and play depending on the action and who is giving it. There's nothing wrong with folding to a reraise if you think at best it's 50/50.
  24. lilOUmikey lilOUmikey is offline

    Columbus, OH
    United States

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 7:46am) in reply to Fisheye25

    chip EV says raise call > open shove > raise fold

    i like the shove tho because if just standard raising, a shortstack pushes a bigger stack can iso with say A10s or AJo forcing you to fold, where open shoving then shortie calls villian can fold those hands

    also depends on reads of the table, is anyone defending light? if so i like the shove even more
  25. actyper actyper is offline

    Markham
    Canada

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 9:38am) in reply to lilOUmikey

    IMO raise/call > open shove. Let's you at least fold if theres some crazy action still to come. 1 3bet shove I call for sure.
    526 
  26. nevertilt22 nevertilt22 is offline

    Panama

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    Jan 5th, 2009 (1/5/2009 9:55am) in reply to actyper

    anyone who open folds this ever should quit poker imo... u have 3 guys to go through LOL I mean are you guys serious? As far as whether to raise/call or open shove, that all depends on how often your table is repopping. Its situational really but in todays world full of repopping fun I def just shove this at most tables
     
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