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Shoving ATC....

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  1. GlitznGlamor GlitznGlamor is offline

    Charlotte, NC
    United States

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 1:46pm)

    I am trying to patch a possible leak in my game and wanted some thoughts....as a general rule at what effective BB stack are you shoving ATC from the SB when folded to once antes kick in and does the antes in a 6 MAX in comparison to a 9 max differ this opinion???

    For example:

    Last night I was playing the 26$ 6 max 196 left top 106 pay it folds to me with 5200 to start the hand at 200/400/50 and I was dealt 103 suited are we shoving here into a 7k stack or folding and looking for a better spot?

    Thanks!!!
  2. tthe chip reep3r tthe chip reep3r is offline

    Scottsdale, AZ
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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 1:50pm) in reply to GlitznGlamor

    ive been asking around and trying to get better with this myself. ATs should be shoving in sb w/ antes at 10-15BB is what ive been told mostly. Some people say >10BB most people say <15.

    sorry >15*
  3. GlitznGlamor GlitznGlamor is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 1:57pm) in reply to tthe chip reep3r

    This seems really really tight!!! A10 surely not!
    Thread Starter
  4. RUBINH RUBINH is offline

    Manhattan, NY
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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 1:59pm) in reply to GlitznGlamor

    yeah you can shove ATC, obv depends on reads on bb tho (and your image).
  5. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:10pm) in reply to GlitznGlamor

    Thank you for posting this question. I've been wondering the same thing. As I'm trying to make better p/f decisions, I thought a great place to start would be understanding where to push ATC, then learn to narrow my range from there.

    As a follow up question, does there come a point where you need to tighten up again because the blinds/antes too big and you are too small?

    For example, i played a $5.50 hyer-turbo, and when we hit the money, it was 4000/8000, 800 and I had 2,400 left in middle position looking down at 78. I had three antes left, so I thought, if I have any chance in this thing, I need to catch a card now, and shoved. But even with 1 ante left, if I shoved twice, I would have about $20k after two wins and be right back. The blinds/antes at this level allow you go to from 1 ante to chip average in a matter of a few hands, so I think a big leak in my game has been continuing to shove wide later, past the point where I have any fold equity, feeling that I need to get back to around the chip average. So, I feel like instead of shoving 78 after the bubble just because I only had three antes left, I should have folded on or two more hands hoping for an A,K,Q,PP. Similarly, if I find myself short stacked ITM, I might launch J8s from the high-jack if I'm like 1/4 or less of the chip average, again feeling like it's so important to get close to the chip average and not wait around. I guess what I'm saying is, I feel like I may need to start playing tighter with 8 BB than I do with 18 BB because there is no fold equity.

     
    Originally Posted by tthe chip reep3r View Post

    ive been asking around and trying to get better with this myself. ATs should be shoving in sb w/ antes at 10-15BB is what ive been told mostly. Some people say >10BB most people say <15.

    sorry >15*


    did you read ATC as ace ten clubs?
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Nov 24th, 2010 at 02:07 PM
  6. GlitznGlamor GlitznGlamor is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:12pm) in reply to gjallen1975

    As a general rule I try to find a spot prior to getting to the 6-8 BB level and you certainly should be shoving before 3 BB...Not saying names but I saw a top 100 reg shoving K8 with 11 bb left from the highjack so there is definately a method to the madness...just wish I could catch it on!
    Thread Starter
  7. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:18pm) in reply to GlitznGlamor

     
    Originally Posted by GlitznGlamor View Post

    As a general rule I try to find a spot prior to getting to the 6-8 BB level and you certainly should be shoving before 3 BB...Not saying names but I saw a top 100 reg shoving K8 with 11 bb left from the highjack so there is definately a method to the madness...just wish I could catch it on!


    obv this. i'm saying sometimes you get short-stacked in the money. if your KK gets cracked and leaves you with 6 BB, i don't think you need to rush to get it in just to "catch up." I think it becomes important to wait for a couple good spots until your stack is big enough where you can steal again. With 6 BB, I think launching J8s from middle position is a bad idea, because you will get called and get a hand better than J8s every 4-6 hands or so. But, with 16 BB ITM, you might launch that same hand from that same spot, feeling you had a 30% chance of getting a fold instead of a 7% chance of getting a fold.

    sorry to go off topic. u asked about +EV blind stealing w ATC fro SB and i'm going on about short-stack shoves.........
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Nov 24th, 2010 at 02:27 PM
  8. DRezz629 DRezz629 is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:22pm) in reply to gjallen1975

    I don't like a shove in this spot, I'd fold you still have like 13 BB's I think 10-3 is too marginal here w/ the button next hand
    Edited By: DRezz629 Nov 24th, 2010 at 02:23 PM
  9. GlitznGlamor GlitznGlamor is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:28pm) in reply to DRezz629

     
    Originally Posted by DRezz629 View Post

    I don't like a shove in this spot, I'd fold you still have like 13 BB's I think 10-3 is too marginal here w/ the button next hand

    What is the bottom of your shoving range in these spots?
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  10. DRezz629 DRezz629 is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 2:31pm) in reply to GlitznGlamor

     
    Originally Posted by GlitznGlamor View Post

    What is the bottom of your shoving range in these spots?

    22+, JT+, K2+, A2+
    Edited By: DRezz629 Nov 24th, 2010 at 02:32 PM
  11. Klepto05 Klepto05 is offline

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11/24/2010 3:18pm) in reply to DRezz629

    Depends on image to an extent, but at this point in MTTs you have to gamble and get lucky at some point. I am shoving 22+, j9+, q8+, k2+, a2+, and a lot of suited connectors. I really don't think shoving atc is -ev here though, but maybe I'm wrong.
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