With an M<7 what range are you shoving from hijack?

From cutoff?

For discussion purposes:

9 max 1500/3000 blinds, 600 ante, you have 68K in chips

6 max 1500/3000 blinds, 600 ante, you have 56K in chips

It's tough to answer your question in a vacuum. I personally think it depends on table dynamics, stack sizes, the specific players left to act, etc. If you want an vacuum that doesn't account for those variables, there are charts that show unexploitable shoves with that stack size from each position, and those can answer your question.

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

It's tough to answer your question in a vacuum. I personally think it depends on table dynamics, stack sizes, the specific players left to act, etc. If you want an vacuum that doesn't account for those variables, there are charts that show unexploitable shoves with that stack size from each position, and those can answer your question.

this. especially with a 17-25bb stack. i think up to 13bb there are standard shoves vs anybody and standard folds, but with like 23bb u need to know if it's profitable to shove 9Ts there or is it more profitable to raise/fold vs nitty weak players or raise/call with a hand like KQo since u expect a crazy guy to shove on u with a 80% range.

 

Originally Posted by MondayWins

Any two cards that I expect to be live if I get called.

Ideally connectedness and suitedness would be extremely helpful, but even 32o is only a 2:1 dog against any two over cards. And unless you're shoving with AA, there's always going to be a chance that someone wakes up with an over pair to your hand.

If you're that short in a tournament, you have a lonnnnng way to go still, so you should be more willing to gamble in these spots.

If you don't steal the blinds and antes here or double up, you're going to be real hurt when the next level hits.

Throw playing "correct poker" out the window here. That's what everyone else is doing. If you get caught shipping garbage one time from the c/o and get lucky (which is exactly what you need in this spot), the next time you ship it from the c/o with a legitimate hand, you're going to get called light - and the rest of the tournament (as long as you don't get moved tables) should go a lot smoother for you (in terms of getting called when you need to get called).

i think this is horrible. there are situation when shoving ATC is profitabe (usually from the sb vs a player who is obv scared not to cash on a bubble or something) , but shoving M=7 from the hijack with 4 guys left to act with a hand "u expect" to be live with like 23o is just bad. u should think in ranges! u wont be live often if the calling ranges of the 4 players left to act are 77+, AJo+ and A9s+.

 

Originally Posted by MondayWins

Errrr. Reading "17-25bb stack" changes things for me.

With a 17-25bb stack, your best play is always a 3-bet all-in against a loose player.

Open shipping that many chips is only get called by a big hand. So ya, the times you get folds you pick up the blinds and antes, but the times you get called you're going to have to get lucky with most of your hands.

It's better to 3-bet shove all-in with the same range here. When you get folds, you get the blinds, the antes AND the opening raiser's chips. And, typically, the hands you'll be facing when you get called are maybe a little weaker.

so u posted without even knowing what stack we're talking about? let's say u was talking about a stack of M=7 and ur in the hijack (OP's question), do u really shove 23o there? and are successful with it?

 

Originally Posted by MondayWins

Errrr. Reading "17-25bb stack" changes things for me.

With a 17-25bb stack, your best play is always a 3-bet all-in against a loose player.

Open shipping that many chips is only get called by a big hand. So ya, the times you get folds you pick up the blinds and antes, but the times you get called you're going to have to get lucky with most of your hands.

It's better to 3-bet shove all-in with the same range here. When you get folds, you get the blinds, the antes AND the opening raiser's chips. And, typically, the hands you'll be facing when you get called are maybe a little weaker.

so u posted without even knowing what stack we're talking about? let's say u was talking about a stack of M=7 and ur in the hijack (OP's question), do u really shove 23o there? and are successful with it?

 

Originally Posted by MondayWins

I'm just using the hand as an example to illustrate the fact that the equity between two unpaired hands isn't usually that great of a difference.

You couldn't be more wrong. For example:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 74.656% 74.31% 00.34% 2000363736 9179346.00 { 66+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 25.344% 25.00% 00.34% 673019460 9179346.00 { 83o }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.944% 64.52% 00.43% 539119608 3552290.00 { 66+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 35.056% 34.63% 00.43% 289380164 3552290.00 { J9s }

That's a HUGE difference.

You're thinking in general so far ITT is pretty far off base. I really can't think of any situations where the best move over the long run isn't the best play. Playing to accumulate chips is obviously the goal, but it needs to be done in a sensible way -- not shoving ATC from HJ with <10bbs, for example.

No, it's almost entirely math based in the situations you describe and equity is all that matters. Understanding the math allows you to determine which hands you can profitably shove. Shoving a short stack has very little psychology involved, it's primarily about your perceived shoving range (the only slight psychological input, which is minimized by having a short stack anyway) and the estimated calling ranges of the players left to act.

You can assign a calling range and based on that calling range determine the percent of time you're getting called. For example, if you shove from the hijack and assume you're getting called by the top 10% of hands, you'll get called ~35% of the time. If you assume you're getting called by top 15% of hands, you'll get a call ~50% of the time. Using the equity each hand has, you can calculate whether or not the hand you're shoving is going to be profitable against the calling ranges assigned. Obviously you can't do this in game, but understand the math and knowing how certain categories of hands play against certain calling ranges allows you to make profitable shoves. Monkey shoving ATC because people usually fold and it might look strong is a losing strategy.

i generelly would suggest everybody just listens to everything tysons posts in this forum. a real quality poster, rarely see guys like him here. everything is just 100% correct obv. mondaywins, if that works for u id say keep doing it, but yeah stop giving wrong advice pls.