Moorman's been pretty active and after he 3bet I opt to flat and go set mining. Perfect flop for me but decided to check/call thinking he's likely to fire out another bet on turn. If he'd fire a bet on turn I was gonna raise but his check allowed the worst card possible to come out and a tough decision to make. As played, would you call big river bet or find a fold?

Full Tilt Poker Game #28065599156: FTOPS Event #10 (217140635), Table 275 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 01:51:12 ET - 2011/02/10
Seat 1: KGBluvsOreos (70,518)
Seat 2: MoormanI (78,833)
Seat 3: CaseL11 (23,375)
Seat 4: sheets (30,419)
Seat 5: csaba333 (144,539)
Seat 6: TheZadester (150,505)
KGBluvsOreos antes 200
MoormanI antes 200
CaseL11 antes 200
sheets antes 200
csaba333 antes 200
TheZadester antes 200
CaseL11 posts the small blind of 800
sheets posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KGBluvsOreos [5c 5s]
csaba333 has 15 seconds left to act
CaseL11 is feeling confused
csaba333 folds
TheZadester folds
CaseL11 is feeling happy
KGBluvsOreos raises to 3,478
CaseL11 is feeling angry
CaseL11 is feeling normal
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI raises to 8,975
CaseL11 folds
sheets folds
KGBluvsOreos has 15 seconds left to act
KGBluvsOreos calls 5,497
*** FLOP *** [5h 7c 3c]
KGBluvsOreos checks
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI bets 11,275
KGBluvsOreos has 15 seconds left to act
KGBluvsOreos calls 11,275
*** TURN *** [5h 7c 3c] [4s]
KGBluvsOreos has 15 seconds left to act
KGBluvsOreos checks
MoormanI checks
*** RIVER *** [5h 7c 3c 4s] [2d]
KGBluvsOreos checks
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI bets 34,750
KGBluvsOreos has 15 seconds left to act
KGBluvsOreos has requested TIME
KGBluvsOreos ?

prob flipping a coin is ur best option here, he might be 8th level thinking u on this hand here but the coin only goes 1 level deep, think about it

think i find a fold here

 

Originally Posted by JaguarsFan

The question you ask yourself is does he want me to call that bet? Seems like the pot is around 45k, you have shown weakness and the potential that you are on a draw by your turn check. If i was on my game I would call it cause it looks like it is more of a big enough to push you out of the pot bet rather than a maybe I can get a call for this much out of him bet.

If I was feeling ballsy I reraise all in. You then have the potential for him to fold that ace in fear of 66 (would make sense with the turn check but not really the river check). Got yourself into kindof a tricky situation IMO

throw out a 15k "value bet" on the river and see what he does. A re-raise you could assume he had it.

its a spot where he has it or he doesnt though, so if you can call his 20k you can call his 35k. so the 35k doesnt have to mean hes trying to push you out. and i dont think you can blocker bet this river. i feel like moorman is good enough and agro enough he will pick off your blocker bet with the same frequency as he will bluff here if you check to him. he probably never calls you with worse either so i think youre burning money blocker betting. not sure moorman bets here for value with an A to fold to a raise so id never ever check raise here either...

The debate ITT is almost entirely redundant. There is no way you can profitably 'set mine' oop against the best in the world here. Calling pre is beyond bad and only leads to spots like this.

Your preflop call is pretty awful, you realy can't profitably setmine oop here. As played c/r flop small and hope to enduce some spaz shoves and get value from most overpairs. C/c flop and c/r turn looks exactly like a set from a random. Plus on this board there are just so many turn cards that will kill all your action.

 

Originally Posted by rivverkiller

Your preflop call is pretty awful, you realy can't profitably setmine oop here. As played c/r flop small and hope to enduce some spaz shoves and get value from most overpairs. C/c flop and c/r turn looks exactly like a set from a random. Plus on this board there are just so many turn cards that will kill all your action.

Agree.. C/c flop and getting agro on later streets is a pretty obv monster.. Oop c/r flop and bet turn is fine imo, he checked behind the flop, bet turn so it looks like u want to buy the pot with some overcards and check river to induce a bluff.. Not sure if it works against moorman but this line looks pretty weak and induces a lot to bet the river big with air.. Its really either air or nuts on the river (ok since u ckecked all streets he may even think his overpair is way ahead but really confusing check behinds by him on a more or less drawgeavy flop) if he had gutshot dont think he would check the flop behind to catch it since the board is pretty perfect to buy the pot in position on the flop, maybe im just not on that level but i think im never folding after showing so much weakness with such a monster to such a big bet whats usually not a valuebet he cant really expect u to call.. Do we get to see the results?

 

Originally Posted by TheSquid

The debate ITT is almost entirely redundant. There is no way you can profitably 'set mine' oop against the best in the world here. Calling pre is beyond bad and only leads to spots like this.

"As played, would you call big river bet or find a fold?"

The question in this thread was not about the mistakes that were made in this hand, but what would u do in this spot as played. I was looking simply for what players would do after huge river bet. I ended up finding a fold since I felt I could find a better spot and still had over 30 bbs left. Results posted below.

*** RIVER *** [5h 7c 3c 4s] [2d]
KGBluvsOreos checks
MoormanI has 15 seconds left to act
MoormanI bets 34,750
KGBluvsOreos has 15 seconds left to act
KGBluvsOreos has requested TIME
KGBluvsOreos FOLDS

We shouldn't call his 3bet pre if we don't have a good postflop strategy overall; regardless of who villain is. In this particular case we also have the problem that villain is an extraordinary player who will never keep barreling in position with 1 paired type of hands, which means that all the possible value you could gain in the hand was already set on the flop, and that small value doesn't justify your preflop call. In order to play this hand profitably you should be capable of building the pot enough, and at any point of the hand you tried to do so.

As for the suggested check/raise line, it might work against donks at the $10 level, but I doubt you'll get many decent players to stack off (and Moorman is way above the "decent" level), since your range will be extremely narrow and based almost exclusively on sets. In fact, any check/call line will be perceived as very strong as well, unless you had shown "calling station" tendencies.

We can't be bluffing when we make a call, but we can wider our perceived range by leading, since that line can and should include drawing hands, and this is a very good board to try to represent a draw, not to mention that there are many turn cards that will kill your action and shut him down. I personally lead flop; as played the river fold seems very easy and standard.

does anyone entertain the thought of jamming here? It's almost like he took the play away from you by betting so large, which may allow him to be sure that a jam = 6 high straight. Kinda reminds me of turk malloy's pot bet/ fold to daize with the wheel in the PCA. I think he almost never has a 6 with check on turn but is he capable of folding an ace for 15k more? He certainly isn't putting his opponent on any aces as played which makes it look even more like a 6. I actually think it is very likely he has an ace here, as he would prob even check back turn w/ AA. Am I overthinking this or is moorman just gonna be like lol 15k more I have straight I call because these plays almost never work for me thanks.

 

Originally Posted by andressoprano

^^^^^^No offense, but it looks to me that you watch too many videos and love the "fancy" plays. People thinks that good players are pulling moves all the time, when in reality they only do it in very particular spots, and get away with them often because they have sick hand reading skills and pick their spots carefully.

And to answer your question: No, Moorman is never bet/folding this river for 15K more, it's just common sense. Turk's hand was completely different, since Daize's river shove did not offer him the right odds to call hoping to get a chop.

Thanks. I'm assuming you are making bolded statement given Moorman does in fact have the straight. I just don't think Moorman sees OP as shoving the A straight on the river (or having any ace in his range except maybe flopped flush draw) so a chop is very unlikely. Fwiw I don't watch any videos but have been told I make too many "fancy" plays and they rarely work. I guess I was just looking at ways to expose Moorman's bet sizing on the river, and I figured he gave his opponent the opportunity to represent an even more polarized range by c/r a huge river bet, but I'm sure you're right that jamming isn't even an option I suck.

 

Originally Posted by andressoprano

We shouldn't call his 3bet pre if we don't have a good postflop strategy overall; regardless of who villain is. In this particular case we also have the problem that villain is an extraordinary player who will never keep barreling in position with 1 paired type of hands, which means that all the possible value you could gain in the hand was already set on the flop, and that small value doesn't justify your preflop call. In order to play this hand profitably you should be capable of building the pot enough, and at any point of the hand you tried to do so.

As for the suggested check/raise line, it might work against donks at the $10 level, but I doubt you'll get many decent players to stack off (and Moorman is way above the "decent" level), since your range will be extremely narrow and based almost exclusively on sets. In fact, any check/call line will be perceived as very strong as well, unless you had shown "calling station" tendencies.

We can't be bluffing when we make a call, but we can wider our perceived range by leading, since that line can and should include drawing hands, and this is a very good board to try to represent a draw, not to mention that there are many turn cards that will kill your action and shut him down. I personally lead flop; as played the river fold seems very easy and standard.

can u explain why this is a easy fold? op's hand is under-repped and river is perfect bluff card for moorman isn't it? moorman's gotta be bluffing here way more than half the time imo. moorman is obviously repping an Ace or might even be making a super thin value bet with 1010-kk. 6 is out of the question since he checked the turn with a FD out there.

calling pre is bad as said, but checking flop makes it worse imo

fold or reraise pre, c/r flop, donk leading turn might be interesting, fold river

why is calling pre and setmining bad here?
i would lead out with set and try to get it all in on the flop or turn...
can someone explain this is laymens turns please