Villain not been at the table very long. But the way he played the hand seemed like a classic station with the flopped nuts.

Insta fold on the river? And any thoughts on how I played the hand?

*********** # 1 **************
pokerstars Game #66491842919: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) - 2011/08/24 16:34:16 ET
Table 'Elinor V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: richehm ($12.86 in chips)
Seat 2: Vanya7let ($13.44 in chips)
Seat 3: Trembath29 ($27.68 in chips)
Seat 4: xHELLVEGASx ($17.39 in chips)
Seat 5: epizod4 ($26.81 in chips)
Seat 6: P-MAN1234 ($10 in chips)
xHELLVEGASx: posts small blind $0.05
epizod4: posts big blind $0.10
richehm: posts the ante $0.02
Vanya7let: posts the ante $0.02
Trembath29: posts the ante $0.02
xHELLVEGASx: posts the ante $0.02
epizod4: posts the ante $0.02
P-MAN1234: posts the ante $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Trembath29 [Kh Jh]
P-MAN1234: raises $0.30 to $0.40
richehm: folds
Vanya7let: folds
Trembath29: calls $0.40
xHELLVEGASx: calls $0.35
epizod4: calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h 3s]
xHELLVEGASx: checks
epizod4: checks
P-MAN1234: checks
Trembath29: bets $1.22
xHELLVEGASx: folds
epizod4: calls $1.22
P-MAN1234: folds
*** TURN *** [4h 5h 3s] [Ks]
epizod4: checks
Trembath29: bets $2.49
epizod4: calls $2.49
*** RIVER *** [4h 5h 3s Ks] [Qs]
epizod4: checks
Trembath29: bets $4.99
epizod4: raises $4.99 to $9.98
Trembath29: ????

 

Originally Posted by josephf

I would not bet the river if I were you

What is your reasoning for this?

I really felt like it was a decent spot for a value bet on the river, even if it was a bit thin. The backdoor flush isn't too much of a worry and he'd played the hand so passively, it really felt like I was ahead.

As villain was in the BB I think he can be calling pretty light pre flop after raise + two callers. I think there are quite a few hands I might be able to get value out of in this spot on the river, like 5x, K6, K2, Q6, Q2, QhXh, maybe even AQ.

He'd played the hand so passively it just seemed that these hands were wayyyy more likely than anything beating me.... I would hate to have checked behind and have him show down a worse made hand.

the value bet is ok but the fact that he has not been at the table very long tells me that he has something big because it is very rare that someone that has just sat down will try to steal a pot, so as dalix has said you could have gone in smaller so that it gives you tho option to fold and reduce your losses.

I check on the river. He's seen you raise pre fl, bet the fl, bet the turn, is he gonna call another bet on the river with a weak 5x , Q-2, Q6 etc? I don't think there is much value to be had there considering you don't know him as he's new to table. But you could bring in his bluffs if you check. If he's on a busted flush/str8 he might bet it to try and take it, or might bet his 5x, Q2, Q6 for thin value himself.

As played, def fold to his raise.

[QUOTE=Trembath29;6472697]I didn't raise pre, I flatted the button then bet the flop in position after everyone checked,

D'oh. Sry, my mistake.

River bet is a leak. You don't need to even think about v-betting this thin at these stakes...focus on the basics until you, y'know, learn how to play and move up to real money.

~ Grifter

agree that the value bet on the river is a bad line,
with the 345 flop and him in the big blind...calling 12bigs on the flop then 24 1/2 bigs on the turn...how can you value bet 1 pair after the river...
what the hell did you put him on? how can you think that flop didnt connect him...imo he sacked a set or had 76,A2 suited. Nooo way in hell your KJ was good here. At worst he's got 2 pair

 

Originally Posted by P0LarAcE

agree that the value bet on the river is a bad line,
with the 345 flop and him in the big blind...calling 12bigs on the flop then 24 1/2 bigs on the turn...how can you value bet 1 pair after the river...
what the hell did you put him on? how can you think that flop didnt connect him...imo he sacked a set or had 76,A2 suited. Nooo way in hell your KJ was good here. At worst he's got 2 pair

What has happened so far in the hand to suggest that 'Nooo way in hell your KJ was good here'? He has check/called two streets on a dripping wet multiway board, that would be a horrific way to play a flopped set or straight, so I felt there were tons of made hands I was beating.

"how can you think that flop didnt connect him.." - I knew the flop connected him obviously, but there are a gazillion hands in his range that connected, and would play it like this up to the river that I'm beating.

Is he just gonna drop hands like 64, A4, 65, K6 etc etc and all the others I listed above when I stab at the flop in position when everyone's checked? The stations at this level are capable of calling down with any trash, I really think that checking the river behind would be a huge leak rather than the other way round. I agree with people's comments that I should have bet smaller though.

If I had posted the hand just up until the point I bet the river and not shown that he had raised, would you still be saying you put him on a set or straight? I really doubt it... obviously once he raised the river it looks like he has a big hand, but up until that point he'd not looked keen to build a big pot or protect any big hands.

'How can you value bet 1 pair after the river' - because there was a good chance I was ahead given the action and might get paid off? Surely you need to be able to bet for thin value to be a winning player... If he did have a set or straight he played it terribly. I will never know, because I folded.

 

Originally Posted by saukendar

Ummmmmm - tons of made hands I was beating. - WHAT????????

You are playing 250ish BBs deep cash, the only made hand I see you still beat here 1 PR + draw and maybe a tiny % of 77+. I really don't think you see many over pairs to the flop because he'll check/raise most of the smaller ones on the flop to protect them & he would have re-raised pre on the bigger ones both for protection and to get some info on your hand.

He was getting almost 5:1 direct on his call & the OR (you) had him covered at more than 250 BB, if he's at all good he's EV+ to see a flop with ATC. When he check/calls the flop I'm thinking mid-PRs & middle suited cards, so sets, str8s, 2 PRs, & PR + draw and combo draw type hands. The second check/call says monster in bold caps.

Bottom line after 2 check/calls I say check back the river. You have some showdown value & he says he has a monster. If you're disciplined you'll have to fold a c/r and you may well hold the winner - why risk that with a weak kicker 1 PR hand?

my 2 cents

Just to point out again, I was not the original raiser... I flatted pf from the button and bet flop and turn in position after everyone checked.

Why does the second check/call say monster in bold caps? I'm not arguing your point, just wondering why you think that. Why would a big made hand check flop, turn and river on such a wet board and risk a, being outdrawn or b, getting minimal value?

I really think that more often not even the weak players at this level would at the very least check/raise the turn here. And surely no solid player is going to check/call flop and turn, and check the river with a set or straight here.

 

Originally Posted by saukendar

Why would a A2ss raise? I can't see him check calling any draw except maybe A6ss and thats still bad at the price you offered....

Overall I like your play on the flop, you asked if the pot was for sale & the answer was no and a check/call shows real strength.

I also like your play on the turn, not because I think your K is good but for the info. On this board with the str8 flopped & the turn bringing the flush draw the only hands that are really strong enough to check/call rather than check/raise are made str8s with a redraw to the flush and really only the nut flush, 76ss is to likely to be a trap. He can always be just plain bad and not know the math but he says he has a real monster.

Whatever, you have a weak kicker 1 PR hand on a board that started bad & just got worse. You have showdown value but you're not anywhere in the ballpark with the nuts, just take the showdown.

basically everything you said is wrong.

you played the hand fine, OP... but as others have said, i like a smaller vbet on the riv and folding to the c/r is std.

 

Originally Posted by saukendar

Just curious as to why you put in a bet on the end? As you say we have to fold a raise and I can't think of any hand he can call a bet with that we can beat. Please discuss why you bet this river.

I've already explained in several of the posts above why I bet the river. I bet the river because I had top pair good kicker, and villain had shown no strength whatsoever up to that point, giving me good reason to think I was ahead.

I don't quite understand why you say that a 'check/call shows real strength'. A check/raise or lead would show strength. On the flop, when the board is super wet, and when I have bet into it and there is still the original raiser to act behind him as well, why does check/call show strength? To me it is passive and screams a draw, small piece of the board, or pair plus draw kind of hand.

Again, his check/call on the turn doesn't seem strong to me. Again he's risking letting a free card come off, and again he is not protecting any hands.

I bet on the end because it's very conceivable that a worse hand would call. I have bet flop and turn in position. If villain had a piece of the flop that he liked with a draw (A5, 65 etc) or a draw that made a pair (K6, Q6, QXhh etc) then he might well pay off a river bet thinking I barrelled all streets with a draw and missed.

Conversely, there seemed very few hands stronger than mine that made any sense at all. Check/call flop, check/call turn and check river is NOT a line I would expect a big made hand to take here.

Remember that there are so many stations at this level who will cling on to all kinds of marginal hands for dear life. I think there was every chance that a river bet on this board, after this action would get called by worse.

You're right that when i bet the river I have to fold to a raise, but can I really expect to get raised in that spot very often?

As it was, I folded to the raise and I agree with analysis by others above that the river is 100% a value bet spot, but I should have bet smaller.

I would bet that river also, but it would be a smaller bet - and I say this because he can call a smaller bet with all of his bluff catchers - The big bet most likely will scare off most weaker made hands he could be holding.

After the raise it is a fold, if he is raising on a bluff here he is a complete fool, or he has a sick read.