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Simple Common Preflop Spot. AK early in tournament OOP

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  1. Matty_B Matty_B is offline

    Edinburgh
    United Kingdom

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    Dec 22nd, 2011 (12/22/2011 7:58pm)

    So basically, i feel that one of my major leaks in the early stages is playing a hand like AK from the blinds. Against one opponent for example, who is raising from early or middle position and it folds to you in the blind. What is the correct, or the way that you guys like to play your hand.

    Dilemma is, alot of players will specifically play their 88-QQ to see a flop with no A or K and therefore our cbets on low flops are never getting through and similarly when it does pop we get minimal value. So if we have an opponent who we dont think is'nt gona stack with AQ or lower pairs how do we proceed because likewise flatting seems pretty weak. I'm getting myself in a muddle just trying to work out a play so here's a couple of examples of what costs me.

    pokerstars Game #72541233001: Tournament #552010433, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/12/21 18:03:22 WET [2011/12/21 13:03:22 ET]
    Table '552010433 7' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: Alex-9909 (3000 in chips)
    Seat 2: Jmoexpress (2990 in chips)
    Seat 3: Motik_13 (2840 in chips)
    Seat 4: jambomatty (6230 in chips)
    Seat 6: orlandopig (3000 in chips)
    Seat 7: FeaNoR4eG (3000 in chips)
    Seat 8: nielcastro (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: nU3DOC (3000 in chips)
    jambomatty: posts small blind 10
    orlandopig: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to jambomatty [Ks Ah]
    FeaNoR4eG: folds
    nielcastro: folds
    nU3DOC: folds
    Alex-9909: folds
    Jmoexpress: raises 40 to 60
    Motik_13: folds
    hgoumenitsa is connected
    jambomatty: raises 280 to 340
    orlandopig: folds
    Jmoexpress: calls 280
    *** FLOP *** [9h 2h 7d]
    jambomatty:bets 490
    Jmoexpress: raises 550 to 1040

    PokerStars Game #70871210248: Tournament #547010697, $2.50+$0.25 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/11/20 22:08:04 WET [2011/11/20 17:08:04 ET]
    Table '547010697 32' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: Kovyanks (2958 in chips)
    Seat 2: GiRR71 (3000 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
    Seat 3: bizad (3040 in chips)
    Seat 4: jambomatty (3140 in chips)
    Seat 5: asxetosGR (2980 in chips)
    Seat 6: YillePille (3000 in chips)
    Seat 7: Andreas2800 (2990 in chips)
    Seat 8: S3XXYMUCK (3000 in chips)
    Seat 9: R.I.P.+NuTz (7513 in chips)
    bizad: posts small blind 10
    jambomatty: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to jambomatty [Ah Ks]
    asxetosGR: folds
    YillePille: folds
    Andreas2800: folds
    S3XXYMUCK: raises 40 to 60
    R.I.P.+NuTz: folds
    Kovyanks: folds
    bizad: folds
    jambomatty: raises 170 to 230
    S3XXYMUCK: calls 170
    *** FLOP *** [As 2c 5h]
    jambomatty: bets 290
    S3XXYMUCK: folds
    Edited By: Matty_B Dec 22nd, 2011 at 07:59 PM
    Reason: is isn't gona stack
  2. lemongello lemongello is offline

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    Dec 22nd, 2011 (12/22/2011 10:23pm) in reply to Matty_B

    from the blinds your 3-bet range is probably 33-JJ, KJs+, AJs+,KQ, AQ. With that in mind when you open that first flop it looks defensive more than strong. You don't really see sets open here, they usually c/c or c/r. Because we have taken QQ+ out of your range with the 3-bet we now think you have a broadway hand that's missed the flop or a small pair that isn't a set and maybe TT or JJ so we raise and if you 5bet shove get out your way.
    Same thing on 2nd hand. With your range the ace has hit so we the villain can shut it down.
    My suggestion is to see how you do with polarizing your range more, someting like 3betting 22-66, QQ+,AK and flatting
    with 77-JJ, KJs+, AJs+,KQ. I think this will make your decisions a little easier out of position.

    GL
  3. chardrian chardrian is offline

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    Dec 22nd, 2011 (12/22/2011 11:53pm) in reply to lemongello

    @ lemon - this is just bizarro to me. Why would he not 3-bet QQ+?

    @ matty - There is nothing wrong with flatting AK from the blinds early on when you are so deep.
    Edited By: chardrian Dec 22nd, 2011 at 11:54 PM
      

    chardrian is an instructor at PocketFives Training . To get more of his advice and to watch his training videos, click here.

  4. PeaceGotAces PeaceGotAces is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 12:13am) in reply to chardrian

    That 3bet range is really wide and wrong. Nothing wrong with flatting ak as posted above. I don't like playing oop and almost never 3bet pre ante with AK or TT and under (when really deep). OOP i'll flat almost my entire range unless there's some dynamic or something where i can get paid off.

    Also when you 3bet and he flats you have to bet it either way. Check folding is bad. If you're going to bet your air bet your made hands too, don't make it obvious. and 3bet smaller on the first hand
    Edited By: PeaceGotAces Dec 23rd, 2011 at 12:17 AM
  5. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 1:56am) in reply to PeaceGotAces

    -focus on getting value and don't worry too much about letting them draw out. only protect on obvious draws. for example, flatting AK in the SB against the CO's raise will probably get you more value over time.

    -focus on flop texture. in the second hand, it's rainbow, and while there are some straight draws that hit some LAGs, it's not hitting much of most players ranges. if you bet less, you could get flatted by a lot of hands you are ahead of. what happens if you get played back in that spot? pray for AQ? if you are ahead, you want them putting in. and if you are behind, villian sort of knows you'll stack off. if you check that second hand or bet less, your opponent is more likely to put chips in behind, and if you aren't ahead, the check makes your opponent bet for value instead of shoving you all in.

    -AKs: i play AK suited different than AK. for instance, if i'm in middle position, facing an EP raise, I'm more likely to 3b AK and flat AKs during the early levels. why chase all the connectors and gappers out? when your a holding the best suited connector in the deck, and are super deepstacked, you want a big multi-way. give the lp players a chance to make their smaller straight/flush. if UTG+1 raises, and you 3b from MP, that J9s on the cut off folds, and so does the 65s in the BB. but when you flat you invite donkeys to the party.

    -
  6. lemongello lemongello is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 3:59am) in reply to chardrian

     
    Originally Posted by chardrian View Post

    @ lemon - this is just bizarro to me. Why would he not 3-bet QQ+?

    @ matty - There is nothing wrong with flatting AK from the blinds early on when you are so deep.

    Chardrian, if you go all the way through my reply i included QQ+ in that polarized range.

    @ PGA - i have no problem with flatting AK pre if player is confident in post flop play. I just felt with this guys frustrations, it might make it easier for him post flop this way. As for flatting everything here, is this for pot control OOP or just deception?
  7. jppp5039 jppp5039 is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 4:23am) in reply to lemongello

     
    Originally Posted by lemongello View Post

    from the blinds your 3-bet range is probably 33-JJ, KJs+, AJs+,KQ, AQ.
    GL

    super wrong. wayyy too wide. and where is QQ-AA?

    OP, you are 3 betting too big i think. from 60 to 340? definitely lean towards 180-200ish.
    Also flatting is fine.
    Edited By: jppp5039 Dec 23rd, 2011 at 04:26 AM
     
  8. djdoodoo djdoodoo is online now

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 4:23am) in reply to jppp5039

    The first hand the 3bet is a too large. 3x the raise + a few bbs. In response to gjallen I think betting a bit smaller on a flop with that texture is probably better. You only gett called by hands which beat you, so losing less on the flop or taking down the pot there is in my opinion the best play. Obviously he could hit an A or a K on the turn but then he has to re-evaluate the situation but the plan would be to just take it down immediately or fold the turn depending on the card. I don't see any point in double barrelling here.

    Also flatting AK in the blinds is another option as said above but I prefer the more agressive version unless the player is a nit.
    Edited By: djdoodoo Dec 23rd, 2011 at 04:24 AM
  9. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 4:24am) in reply to lemongello

     
    Originally Posted by lemongello View Post

    Chardrian, if you go all the way through my reply i included QQ+ in that polarized range.

    @ PGA - i have no problem with flatting AK pre if player is confident in post flop play. I just felt with this guys frustrations, it might make it easier for him post flop this way. As for flatting everything here, is this for pot control OOP or just deception?


    I WOULD SAY ITS FOR NO VALUE WITH THESE BLINDS,thought this was for chard but not sure why pga is saying he never 3b ak oop late in tourney lol i'm complete opposite with ak deep in tourney.....

    i agree that 1st hand OP 3b really wide and i'm gonna assign u to AK unless u are a solid reg.......... i have picked off peeps early in mtt's with junk because of an AK read and i hit a pair with favorable flop vs. the dead on read i get from villians,especially live [just did it this morning against a player i'm familiar with] i had 7 high but raised him off j high board and he shows his ak i showed shit
    Edited By: double_kyan Dec 23rd, 2011 at 04:39 AM
     1
  10. Matty_B Matty_B is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 11:13am) in reply to double_kyan

    Some good replies so far here, thanks. I guess to avoid these spots is to just flat from the blinds unless I can find a read that a players likely to stack light to me pre flop. I think this can also lead to as others saying a little deception, as players in the low stakes tournies either will be thinking theyre golden with AQ on A48 or would assume we'd be 3betting AK
    Thread Starter
  11. PeaceGotAces PeaceGotAces is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 4:37pm) in reply to double_kyan

     
    Originally Posted by double_kyan View Post

    but not sure why pga is saying he never 3b ak oop late in tourney lol i'm complete opposite with ak deep in tourney.....

    Read my post. I said pre ante with a deep stack, not deep in a tourney. The reason i flat my big hands like JJ, QQ, AQ+ is because i don't want to have to call off 100+bb with no history where the guy will never be 4betting me light.

    You have to have a plan so when you 3bet a MP raiser from the blinds what are you doing when he 4bets you/ shoves when you have one of those big hands? A decent reg probably isn't getting it in with anything less than like QQ+, AK...and 4bet getting in AK and QQ with no history isn't the greatest imo.
  12. lemongello lemongello is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2011 (12/29/2011 3:18pm) in reply to PeaceGotAces

    You go ahead and raise and IF you get 4 bet you are deep enough to fold your AK
  13. tb4rizzl tb4rizzl is offline

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    Dec 29th, 2011 (12/29/2011 5:31pm) in reply to lemongello

    i dont see what the problem is when youre beat youre beat, hes obv not making a play on that first hand. if anything raise slightly less pre.

    2nd hand - you won? its a $2 tourny the guy is likely to have called you with anything and he missed nbd look for another spot, atc are effective in a $2 donk fest just make a hand against the right calling station and extract what you can AK isnt worth blinking an eye at early in that type of tourny, same goes for when you have to let it go.
  14. SlimGuy1 SlimGuy1 is offline

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    Jan 1st, 2012 (1/1/2012 2:23am) in reply to jppp5039

     
    Originally Posted by jppp5039 View Post

    super wrong. wayyy too wide. and where is QQ-AA?

    OP, you are 3 betting too big i think. from 60 to 340? definitely lean towards 180-200ish.
    Also flatting is fine.

    THIS.

    Plus blind levels are the same and your 3bet sizing is too large and 1st hand you 3b to 340 next hand you 3b to 230 :S

    + In the 1st hand I would check fold the flop most of the time :)
    Edited By: SlimGuy1 Jan 1st, 2012 at 02:24 AM
     
  15. BMastaG BMastaG is offline

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    Jan 1st, 2012 (1/1/2012 3:58am) in reply to SlimGuy1

    i think he bet 340 to get him to committ more than 10% of his stack.
    But anyways, bet of 490 is the awkward. If I 3 bet in that situation to 340, open shoving on the flop i think is better; don't even give the villain a chance to raise. Not sure though, its early stage, flatting, keeping stack to pot ratio high, and playing cautiously seems like its better
  16. RedIceRap RedIceRap is online now Moderator

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    Jan 1st, 2012 (1/1/2012 6:59am) in reply to BMastaG

    man AK is a strong hand when it's late in a tourney and people see AQ as a very stong hand which isn't the case this early in tourneys. u picked those two hands pretty well imo and it shows how most people play AK the way they learned from an old poker book. u hit something u wont get paid most of the time. u dont hit, someone calls u dont on a board without an A or a K... i call all day oop this early and with cash game stacks there and play it straight forward. i mean even if u just flat with AK pre there u prolly just can bet flop + turn and overbet shove the river and villain still wont fold his top pair Q kicker on the lower stakes... gettin it in pre is just a bad idea vs any hand that is not AQ or worse (which wont ever 4bet there).

     
    Originally Posted by BMastaG View Post

    i think he bet 340 to get him to committ more than 10% of his stack.
    But anyways, bet of 490 is the awkward. If I 3 bet in that situation to 340, open shoving on the flop i think is better; don't even give the villain a chance to raise. Not sure though, its early stage, flatting, keeping stack to pot ratio high, and playing cautiously seems like its better

    3bet pre and open shove flop? stop giving advice pls, are u out of ur mind?
     252 
  17. Izaak Izaak is offline

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    Jan 1st, 2012 (1/1/2012 4:17pm) in reply to RedIceRap

    My general rule is 3 bet with ak is your opponent is weak post flop so will rarely use the power of the position well, he rarely/ never floats maybe he sucks at reading ect... Against a good player who plays well in position flat you don't want to build a pot out of position against somebody who is going to out play you post flop. I also play like this against unknown player until I feel I have a grasp for there game.
  18. rungoodmuch rungoodmuch is offline

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    Jan 1st, 2012 (1/1/2012 6:33pm) in reply to Izaak

    Both hands look fine to me. I prefer the 3b size in the 2nd hand. First hand sizing looks way to big. I personally am not flatting the top of my range in these spots even early in tournaments. I think a 3b is infinitly better just because you take control of the pot and even tho you're building a pot oop you have a premium hand. I think flatting AK seems a little weak esp early on when you get loose players flatting 3bs light and calling off stacks with 1p.
  19. BMastaG BMastaG is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 9:13am) in reply to RedIceRap

    RadIceRap said: "3bet pre and open shove flop? stop giving advice pls, are u out of ur mind? "

    No - I said I would flat and play the hand cautiously out of position.

    I meant if I actually 3 bet pf to 340 like the original post (which I wouldn't) then I would shove instead of betting an awkward amount like 490 and possibly be forced to fold after putting in over 25% of the stack (which would be horrible). I think you misunderstood my post, and if I wasnt clear before I apologize. I dont think you can tell me whether I could post comments or not; I am perfectly within my rights to post.
    Edited By: BMastaG Jan 4th, 2012 at 09:16 AM
  20. RedIceRap RedIceRap is online now Moderator

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 10:56am) in reply to BMastaG

     
    Originally Posted by BMastaG View Post

    RadIceRap said: "3bet pre and open shove flop? stop giving advice pls, are u out of ur mind? "

    No - I said I would flat and play the hand cautiously out of position.

    I meant if I actually 3 bet pf to 340 like the original post (which I wouldn't) then I would shove instead of betting an awkward amount like 490 and possibly be forced to fold after putting in over 25% of the stack (which would be horrible). I think you misunderstood my post, and if I wasnt clear before I apologize. I dont think you can tell me whether I could post comments or not; I am perfectly within my rights to post.

    Sure, didnt mean it as an offense. Sry for misunderstanding u.
     252 
  21. BMastaG BMastaG is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 11:26am) in reply to RedIceRap

     
    Originally Posted by RedIceRap View Post

    Sure, didnt mean it as an offense. Sry for misunderstanding u.

    no problem, I didnt get offended, I just wanted to clarify.
  22. Ptrou Ptrou is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 2:47pm) in reply to CoralPoker Geof

    There is so much misleading advise in this thread excluding RedIceCap (and a few others)

    OP you sound like you have a good understanding and you have touched on the important factor of not getting paid when we hit etc.

    By flatting we keep all aces in there range and like redice said we can bet, bet, over shove and get paid off by worse aces.

    BMastaG, were not goint to shove instead of making it 490, the other bloke is still going to fold when he misses and still going to call when he hits or has a draw, losing all our stack is worse than losing 25% of our stack whilst doing the same job.

    Late in a MTT is completley different and most of the time never a flat unless somehow your incredibly deep
  23. rayfox111 rayfox111 is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 5:07pm) in reply to PeaceGotAces

     
    Originally Posted by PeaceGotAces View Post

    Read my post. I said pre ante with a deep stack, not deep in a tourney. The reason i flat my big hands like JJ, QQ, AQ+ is because i don't want to have to call off 100+bb with no history where the guy will never be 4betting me light.

    You have to have a plan so when you 3bet a MP raiser from the blinds what are you doing when he 4bets you/ shoves when you have one of those big hands? A decent reg probably isn't getting it in with anything less than like QQ+, AK...and 4bet getting in AK and QQ with no history isn't the greatest imo.

    Like this post, clear and accurate.
    Easy to get carried away when you see AK!
  24. Mahon78 Mahon78 is offline

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    Jan 4th, 2012 (1/4/2012 8:42pm) in reply to chardrian

     
    Originally Posted by chardrian View Post

    @ lemon - this is just bizarro to me. Why would he not 3-bet QQ+?

    @ matty - There is nothing wrong with flatting AK from the blinds early on when you are so deep.

    i was just asking myself the same thing, whats wrong with QQ+?
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