earlier i had posted the following question......
what's your move?
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:14046510 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Monday, July 18, 16:27:03 EDT 2005
Table Table 11562 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: Wiseeyes ( $2285 )
Seat 4: sinsling ( $945 )
Seat 5: rubydatooth ( $1110 )
Seat 6: Cabo_Wabo ( $2410 )
Seat 9: lilkunta2 ( $1250 )
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lilkunta2 [ 6h As ]
you are in the small blind (75) so you have 1175 left. folds around to you and the big blind has 2135 in chips.
and got the following resposes..............
"Muck. You're out of position. Save your chips for a better position. ", BigGunX
"I fold no pot to be won, whats best case scenario you raise and he folds a measly BB to you, worst case is you raise, he reraises and u call and catch a piece, he goes all in, then what?
You just lost some of your stack because you thought your A6 os could scare him off his BB?
Live to battle again is my motto..... " aching knee
" <TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>Call or fold more than likely fold A/6 os are not good cards. My humble opinion it is to early to make a move that may cost you chip position. (You can not lose what you don't put in the middle - I think worm said this from Rounders)
HF </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>"hot flash
i posted the question on a different forum ( two plus two) and got the following responses.....
"All-in. To be a winning SNG player, you need to push a lot of hands from the SB. A6 is very good against just one active player left who most likely has nothing. "-
"clear clear allin, your hand is too strong headsup with only 7-8x the BB " -curtains
as you can see, these answers are contradictory and have thus left an unanswerd question in my mind about what the correct play is and why.
is there no correct play?
does it "depend"? (i think this answer is a load of bullshit)
Twoplustwo has totally different views than pocketfives. I post on both sites and I mainly agree with the posters on P5. Wonder who would win out of P5 vs 2plus2 in a tournament? Would be interesting.
Two + Two is "Harrington On Hold'em" land. In general, Harrington would say that your M (Stack divided by cost of a round) is around 5 and therefore you can justify pushing with the A-6 if you are the first to enter the pot.
In this case, I just don't think there's enough to gain by pushing all-in, since you're just picking up the big blind and you'll most likely only get called if you are beaten. Just my two cents.
Hawkhill, see you're from Collegeville. I'm here in Malvern. Is that the St. Joe's Hawk in your profile?
Are you involved in any good home games in this area?
Relatively new to this site.
Cool. I work in Malvern.
Yep--That's the Hawk flapping away.
I usually have at least 1 or 2 games lined up a week as well as some bigger tourneys every few weekends. I'd be happy to share some info w/ you.
Unfortunately, "it depends" isn't BS. There is rarely a clear cut, text book answer in poker.
A lot depends on how the BB plays and what they think of your play so far.
Is he tight?
Does he like to gamble?
Are you seen as a tight player?
Have you been in a lot of pots?
Have you pushed all-in a couple times already?
Did you recently take a bad beat and could look like you are pushing in on tilt?
5 handed, you have a little breathing room, but not a lot. Calling or raising small is not an option. Fold or push. But if you push, you are not looking for a caller. I cringe when I have to push with Ace-rag. I'd much rather push with something like 89s that isn't likely going to be as dominated (of course, I'd much rather have a high PP).
The effective M would actually be less (around 2.5 I think) plus you would be the first one to bet into the pot, giving you a slightly higher chance of taking the big blind. Also, the BB doesn't have that enormous of a stack, so if he calls and loses, he's in the same position after the hand that the SB is currently in.
A6 is clearly good against a random hand not to mention BB will be forced to fold much stronger than random hands to an all-in. I'm definitely pushing here. You have to play a pot probably in the next 2-3 orbits (when your all-in will give you some folding equity) and pushing here probably gives you an extra orbit, not to mention putting you strongly into third chip position.
The more that I look at this however, the more I'm not sure. You're still in 3rd if you fold here. How much time until blinds go up? If it's close I think you need to push but if you still have 5 minutes or so folding is probably ok. Sorry for being so indecisive (I've always pushed in this situation) but after seeing some of the responses from great players like BigGunX, I'm being forced to reexamine my play.
This is a very clear push, winning the blinds increases your stack by almost 20% and your hand is quite strong given the situation. Against many opponents it's reasonable to push basically any 2 cards here.
In most cases I would push here, but if my opponents are playing very badly and I think I am likely to make the money by sitting on my hands then I will do that until I get a real hand or I make the money. If the BB is an idiot I may also fold because I'm not a big favorite even over a random hand with A6o.
M and Q values need to evaluated differently when you are very close to making the money or in a tourney where a alrge number of spots are being paid. My M needs to be a lot lower when I'm almsot in the money in a SNG than it does if I'm almost in the money in a MTT. In an MTT going for first is going to pay a lot more (as compared to sneaking into the money) than it will in a SNG, making it worth it to push harder at a lower M value in an MTT than is wise in a SNG.
I think questions like this are nearly impossible to answer well without being there and seeing things in the context of the game.
It's a situation where you need to ask yourself some questions.
If I Push, what percentage of the time will he Call?
If he Calls, what percentage of the time will he win?
Let's say you figure he Calls half the time, and then wins 60% of the times that he Calls versus your A 6. That means he wins 30% of the times that you Push with A 6 and you win 70% of those times.
If you figure he Calls more often or wins more of the times that he Calls, adjust those numbers accordingly. Whatever final percentage you arrive at, you need to be comfortable with that win/loss ratio if you're going to Push. Otherwise, lay it down now.
this is definitely a tough choice in my opinion. I think you need to ask yourself : how does he play when hes heads up with someone who isnt all-in. Aggressive, tight, etc... but also remember that he has a big stack of chips in front of him, so dont get carried away by pushing all-in with your A6 o/s. because youre not wanting to committ all your chips on this type of hand quite yet. You still have the opportunity to just smooth call preflop and take a free flop. You may be a favorite at the time (60%-40%) but anything can happen on the flop, so i think the right choice is smooth call and if he raises i would dump the hand and wait for a better spot where you have position on him.
The reason I like an allin here is because it positions yourself much better in the tournament. Even if you simply pick up his $150, It brings you up to $1400. If the two short stacks cant play, each of them will be at about half of your stack, while you maintain high fold equity against the two larger stacks.
That being said, against a tight opponent I certainly would prefer a standard raise, with the ability to bail in case he moves over the top. I'd only be getting a litle over 2 to 1 to call a re-raise here, but will certainly be a bigger dog than this. Plus, by folding, I'm still in the range of the other two short stacks.
I can also make a case for folding against certain opponents, as it may not be worth risking a tournament for what is a race or worse situation here. The more likely they are to call, the less likely I am to play with A6.
So as long as I believe it is highly unlikely I get called, the more I shove in here simply to win the $150. The tighter the opponent, the more I like a standard raise and bail if re-raised scenario. The looser the opponent, the more likely I am to raise allin if I believe it keeps him from calling, or fold if he I believe he is so loose that he likes to gamble to go for the win.
I would say you should almost always push all-in with this hand in this situation with this few players with this stack. Harrington would probably recommend pushing all-in with much worse hands than this. (and actually some worse hands like 89 might be much better to push in with, since if you get a caller with A6, you're probably dominated by a higher ace, whereas if you push in with 89 you have two live cards if he does call)
In any case I don't think a standard raise here is a good play. From the SB with all those folders in front of you, it looks like a steal attempt and the BB is very likely to reraise you all-in just because he knows a lot of players would try to steal from the SB here with any two cards. This of course depends entirely on your and his table images, but we don't know those so will just speak in general.
If you're looking to make more money on the hand and the BB is tight, do a min raise, (which should be called by BB) and hope for a call. If he calls, push in on the flop no matter what is there. This is more risky than pushing before the flop, but you get some extra cash, and the odds are the flop didnt help him. If he pushes in over the top of you, you've got a connundrum.. he may be doing that with Kx or Ax or any two cards depending on the player... so depending on how he's been playing, either call or fold.
All this would be a little different if his stack was a lot bigger - but he's only 2x your stack, and you can really hurt him, so solid play is to push, risky aggressive play is the min raise pre.
Oh, and yes - it does "depend".
It depends entirely on what type of player the BB is and what type of player they perceive you to be. This is more important than any of the other logic offered on how to play this hand.
You really are trying to steal here - I dont imagine you really want a call with A6 given that 3 places pay and only 5 players remain... so determining whether your "steal" will work is entirely psychological and has very little to do with the math of the game. There is no right answer, so load BS or not I'm afraid you're stuck with that fact ;)