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SNG - Call with 33 in BB ??

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  1. Pungerface Pungerface is offline

    Saint John's
    Canada

    Posts: 136
    Joined: May 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:04am)

    Ive been under the impression that my call here is standard, however, after a friend who was railing me was disturbed to see me make the call, I agreed to post the hand and recieve feedback.
    Final 3 of an 18 seater turbo sng.

    Note the blinds are 400/800 a50, so my M after posting the blind is `~ 7.6.

    Villain's M after posting is ~ 6.2.

    He's been quite aggressive, and I have him covered, albeit slightly.

    pokerstars Game #19472315565: Tournament #100994405, $15+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2008/08/08 - 23:47:12 (ET)
    Table '100994405 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: golforejht72 (8855 in chips)
    Seat 3: Pungerface (11140 in chips)
    Seat 9: mushed1 (7005 in chips)
    golforejht72: posts the ante 50
    Pungerface: posts the ante 50
    mushed1: posts the ante 50
    golforejht72: posts small blind 400
    Pungerface: posts big blind 800
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Pungerface [3s 3c]
    mushed1: folds
    golforejht72: raises 8005 to 8805 and is all-in
    Pungerface: calls 8005
    *** FLOP *** [Ts 8c Qh]
    *** TURN *** [Ts 8c Qh] [Tc]
    *** RIVER *** [Ts 8c Qh Tc] [Jd]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    golforejht72: shows [9h Qs] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
    Pungerface: shows [3s 3c] (two pair, Tens and Threes)
    golforejht72 collected 17760 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 17760 | Rake 0
    Board [Ts 8c Qh Tc Jd]
    Seat 1: golforejht72 (small blind) showed [9h Qs] and won (17760) with a straight, Eight to Queen
    Seat 3: Pungerface (big blind) showed [3s 3c] and lost with two pair, Tens and Threes
    Seat 9: mushed1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  2. threebanger threebanger is offline

    United States

    Posts: 5,094
    Joined: Sep 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:18am) in reply to Pungerface

    It's a bad call. I don't think M is nearly as important a consideration as relative stack sizes, and I hate being the caller as the chip leader with a very low PP. I don't care how aggressive he's being, you are always racing at best here. Much better had you been able to shove your hand first.
  3. Bawsten Bawsten is offline

    Fort Myers, FL
    United States

    Posts: 4,967
    Joined: May 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:22am) in reply to Pungerface

    I think its the "right call" but its such a big call too. 33 is ahead of his range because more than likely 3 handed he does not have another pair, and If it were me and Istill grinded the 16s I would prolly snap call but I hate stacking off here with 33 youre racing no matter what and you could be 20/80. You can definitely get it in with a better holding. Id rather shove KQ then call 33 imo.
  4. Pungerface Pungerface is offline

    Saint John's
    Canada

    Posts: 136
    Joined: May 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:22am) in reply to threebanger

    What would your calling requirements be in this spot?
    Thread Starter
  5. threebanger threebanger is offline

    United States

    Posts: 5,094
    Joined: Sep 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:29am) in reply to Pungerface

    I call with 88+, AQ+, maybe a few more hands (77, AJ, etc) had he been out of line.
  6. Pungerface Pungerface is offline

    Saint John's
    Canada

    Posts: 136
    Joined: May 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 12:45am) in reply to Pungerface

    It's kind of funny, I was playing HU with a regular in a 27$ SNG there about a month or so ago, I had him outchipped slightly, and I caught him shoving 72o on me! He sucked out of course, and when I asked him what in the hell he was doing in the chatbox (I expect better from a regular, winning, multitabler) he told me I was calling too tight, so it was +EV for him to shove every single hand on me.

    !
    Thread Starter
  7. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

    Niagara Falls, NY
    United States

    Posts: 10,222
    Joined: Nov 05

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 1:08am) in reply to Pungerface

    This is a fold.

    The math of it:

    If you fold:

    <TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TH>Player</TH><TH>Chips</TH><TH>Prob 1st</TH><TH>Prob 2nd</TH><TH>Prob 3rd</TH><TH>Equity</TH></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>Hero
    </TD><TD>10290</TD><TD>0.3811</TD><TD>0.3478</TD><TD>0.2711</TD><TD>$83.97</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>golfor
    </TD><TD>9755</TD><TD>0.3613</TD><TD>0.3478</TD><TD>0.2909</TD><TD>$82.90</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>mushed1
    </TD><TD>6955</TD><TD>0.2576</TD><TD>0.3043</TD><TD>0.4381</TD><TD>$76.13</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Should you call, and win:

    <TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TH>Player</TH><TH>Chips</TH><TH>Prob 1st</TH><TH>Prob 2nd</TH><TH>Prob 3rd</TH><TH>Equity</TH></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>Hero
    </TD><TD>20045</TD><TD>0.7424</TD><TD>0.2576</TD><TD>0.0000</TD><TD>$101.05 (a gain of $17.08, compared to folding)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>golfor
    </TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0.0000</TD><TD>0.0000</TD><TD>0.0000</TD><TD>$54.00 </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>mushed1
    </TD><TD>6955</TD><TD>0.2576</TD><TD>0.7424</TD><TD>0.0000</TD><TD>$87.95</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Should you call, and lose:

    <TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TH>Player</TH><TH>Chips</TH><TH>Prob 1st</TH><TH>Prob 2nd</TH><TH>Prob 3rd</TH><TH>Equity</TH></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>Hero
    </TD><TD>2285</TD><TD>0.0846</TD><TD>0.1920</TD><TD>0.7233</TD><TD>$63.75 (a loss of $20.22, compared to folding)</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD>golfor
    </TD><TD>17760</TD><TD>0.6578</TD><TD>0.2890</TD><TD>0.0532</TD><TD>$97.32</TD></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD>mushed1
    </TD><TD>6955</TD><TD>0.2576</TD><TD>0.5189</TD><TD>0.2235</TD><TD>$81.92</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    So, by calling, you are risking $20.22 for a shot to win $17.08

    20.22/(20.22+17.08) = 20.22/37.30 = 54.2% <<this is how often you must win to make the call.

    Here's the Nash equilibrium for the spot:

    <TABLE class=simple cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>SB</TD><TD><TD><TD>56.6%, 22+ Ax+ K2s+ K5o+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J2s+ J7o+ T4s+ T7o+ 95s+ 97o+ 84s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+ <<what he should be shoving</TD></TR><TR><TD><TD>BB</TD><TD><TD>17.8%, 55+ A4s+ A7o+ K9s+ KTo+ <<your calling range if he is shoving what he should be</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    As the math above shows, to balance the risk/reward for this situation, you must win 54.2% of the time against his range.

    http://www.propokertools.com/simulat...57%25&e=54

    ^^^if you want to adjust his range, you can do so at this link to see what you can call against different shoving ranges

    If he is shoving 100% of all hands, this is borderline, just a fold by 0.5%
    <TABLE class=pptSimTable cellSpacing=0 border=1><TBODY><TR class=pptSimLabels><TH>Hand</TH><TH>Pot equity</TH><TH>Wins</TH><TH>Ties</TH></TR><TR class=oddrow><TD class=pptSpec>100%</TD><TD class=pptEV>46.31%</TD><TD class=pptWinsHi>5,720,468,052</TD><TD class=pptTiesHi>214,918,884</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow><TD class=pptSpec>33</TD><TD class=pptEV>53.69%</TD><TD class=pptWinsHi>6,650,047,464</TD><TD class=pptTiesHi>214,918,884</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    You could call if:

    - You had more chips
    - He had less chips and couldn't dent you so much.
    - This was a 9 man, with a 50/30/20 structure, that rewards first place as opposed to each place individually (18 man is 40/30/20/10)

    Problem is, that the chips you risk, because he dents you so much, as worth more than the chips you stand to gain. That's why this is a fold.

    Don't shoot yourself for this. You gave away less than sixty cents equity, and learned something new.

    Hope that helps!
  8. Pungerface Pungerface is offline

    Saint John's
    Canada

    Posts: 136
    Joined: May 07

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 1:17am) in reply to Pungerface

    God bless you Jennifear! Thanks.
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  9. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

    Niagara Falls, NY
    United States

    Posts: 10,222
    Joined: Nov 05

    Aug 9th, 2008 (8/9/2008 1:28am) in reply to Pungerface

    yvw :)
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