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SNG downswings

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  1. koolkat koolkat is offline

    Jamestown, TN
    United States

    Posts: 204
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:00pm)

    For you guys out there that play a ton of SNGs, how big of a downswing would you need before you started worrying about it? Although I've been an above-average player for a while now I only recently started keeping detailed records, and in my last 50 SNGs I've lost about 10-buy-ins. I know I need to play probably at least 1000 for a good sample size, but is this anything to worry about or normal?

    One problem that I've noticed is this, I'm a pretty conservative player and a lot of times when the tourney is down to 5 I'm 4th or 5th in chips. Therefore, I need to win a race to cash. I'm trying to learn how to accumulate more without needing premium hands and huge flops. It's hard for me to bluff many pots, because i usually play 4 tables and it's hard to get reads on individual players. Maybe playing fewer tables will help. Anybody with any suggestions about this problem?
  2. ill flu ill flu is offline

    Kailua, HI
    United States

    Posts: 6,055
    Joined: Aug 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:01pm) in reply to koolkat

    I dont have any exact numbers but 10 buy ins is not very rare at all. I once went like 16 turbos STRAIGHT without cashing in one.
  3. koolkat koolkat is offline

    Jamestown, TN
    United States

    Posts: 204
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:12pm) in reply to ill flu

    Thanks flu, I know you're a good player and that makes me feel a little better. I think I'll play about 200 more then reevaluate.
    Thread Starter
  4. wywrot wywrot is offline

    Brampton
    Canada

    Posts: 831
    Joined: Mar 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:13pm) in reply to koolkat

    Even the best sng players in the world can easily go on 10 buy-in downswings...

    Keep at it
    352 3
  5. amlove amlove is offline

    Seattle, WA
    United States

    Posts: 488
    Joined: Jun 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:17pm) in reply to wywrot

    can 10 buy-ins even really be considered a downswing? im currently in the middle of about a 50 buy-in downswing... been a long week
  6. wavegoodbye wavegoodbye is offline

    Acme
    Canada

    Posts: 824
    Joined: Feb 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:30pm) in reply to amlove

    Please dont take offense to this but...

    that is not a downswing, that is a leak in your game.
  7. takeover_inc takeover_inc is offline

    Mason, TX
    United States

    Posts: 699
    Joined: Sep 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 7:51pm) in reply to wavegoodbye

    Please don't take offense to this but...

    Thanks for stating the obv
  8. lwrunner103 lwrunner103 is offline

    Lake Worth, FL
    United States

    Posts: 121
    Joined: Jun 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 8:29pm) in reply to amlove

    AMlove not to be a dick but calls like these are probably why you are on your downswing and why I just tilted off 2/3 of my roll. I'll say it isn't horrendous but pretty bad.

    pokerstars GAME #7836490216: TOURNAMENT #40054311, $210+$15 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VII (100/200) - 2007/01/08 - 19:26:18 (ET)
    Table '40054311 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: lwrunner103 (2435 in chips)
    Seat 2: Comma_D (2675 in chips)
    Seat 3: amlove (1750 in chips)
    Seat 5: slipperily (3530 in chips)
    Seat 7: mistermo (2545 in chips)
    Seat 8: drakeduck (565 in chips)
    lwrunner103: posts the ante 25
    Comma_D: posts the ante 25
    amlove: posts the ante 25
    slipperily: posts the ante 25
    mistermo: posts the ante 25
    drakeduck: posts the ante 25
    Comma_D: posts small blind 100
    amlove: posts big blind 200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to lwrunner103 [7d Ac]
    slipperily: folds
    mistermo: folds
    drakeduck: folds
    lwrunner103: raises 2210 to 2410 and is all-in
    Comma_D: folds
    amlove: calls 1525 and is all-in
    *** FLOP *** [6c 2d 9c]
    *** TURN *** [6c 2d 9c] [8h]
    *** RIVER *** [6c 2d 9c 8h] [9s]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    amlove: shows [6d 6h] (a full house, Sixes full of Nines)
    lwrunner103: shows [7d Ac] (a pair of Nines)
    amlove collected 3700 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 3700 | Rake 0
    Board [6c 2d 9c 8h 9s]
    Seat 1: lwrunner103 (button) showed [7d Ac] and lost with a pair of Nines
    Seat 2: Comma_D (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: amlove (big blind) showed [6d 6h] and won (3700) with a full house, Sixes full of Nines
    Seat 5: slipperily folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: mistermo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: drakeduck folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  9. as_in_2006 as_in_2006 is offline

    Redwood City, CA
    United States

    Posts: 461
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 8:35pm) in reply to koolkat

    I agree a 10 buyin downswing isnt something to worry about yet. The key thing though is to look through your hand histories for the tournaments you are losing and find out if you are losing because of multiple bad plays you made or just because of bad luck. There have been times where i swore i was losing because of bad luck then i look through the hand histories and see some hands that i played badly and it really wouldve made a difference in the potential outcome of the game. Best of luck to you.
  10. hyacinthgirl hyacinthgirl is offline

    Albuquerque, NM
    United States

    Posts: 6,177
    Joined: Feb 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 8:42pm) in reply to koolkat

    I don't have a huge sample size for stars and I never tracked on other sites, but I can tell you that 10 buyins isn't a big deal. :) It doesn't feel nice at all, but it's very reasonable. Just last night I played a session where I was down like 15 buyins at my low point, and finished it up just a bit for the day.

    However, the most important thing is your comfort zone relative to your bankroll. If you've lost 10 buyins and you feel like you're playing poorly, or it bothers you, drop down and play the level below you for a little bit until you get your confidence back. SNGs go so fast and can get so ugly that there's nothing wrong with stepping down for a day or a week or a month if you have to, to get your head straight again. You will not win if you think you're playing badly, running badly, or you are worried about the effect of losing 10 buyins on your bankroll.

    I know this helps me tons, because my SNG game is heavily influenced by how I <span>think </span>I'm running or playing. So when it gets bad I will play a couple of lower ones. I'm big on having a heavily padded BR for this reason, though, so if I lose 10 buyins, I've still got 40 there and can say, "So what?!"
  11. pokerfellow pokerfellow is offline

    NY
    United States

    Posts: 721
    Joined: Jan 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 9:14pm) in reply to koolkat

    I went on a 9 buyin downswing between 8 and 9 pm tonight. Swung back 7.5 buyins between 9 and 10. Happens.
  12. pokerisnice pokerisnice is offline

    Santa Rosa, CA
    United States

    Posts: 927
    Joined: Apr 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 9:32pm) in reply to koolkat

    10 buyins is not even worth thinking about. I have lost 15 or 16 buyins in a day and I hear sippin_criss once had a day where he lost 20+ buy-ins. Play enough sng's and I guarantee you you will have a streak where you will go 500 or more sng's without making any money or perhaps having an ROI of less than 4 or 5%. Variance is a wonderful thing. As I said, if a 10 buy-in downswing bothers you then you should probably quit poker, as there will be days or evens weeks or months where you will run so bad that you will want to go to the bathroom and shoot yourself.

    That being said, good luck at the tables.
  13. pirgcd pirgcd is offline

    Mountain View, CA
    United States

    Posts: 66
    Joined: Feb 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 10:03pm) in reply to koolkat

    I'll restate what everyone else has said, 10 buy-ins is nothing. I've lost 10 in a row before, just keep playing well and you'll win in the end. If you can't get reads on players start taking some notes on their games, it might help you the next time you play them. If you don't have reads on the players then you're just playing your cards, maybe play 2-3 at a time or get another moniter, it helps.
  14. simonomant simonomant is offline

    Australia

    Posts: 170
    Joined: Sep 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 10:50pm) in reply to pirgcd

    Let me say it also, 10 buyins is nothing. I'm in the process of learning that myself though too.

    I've got a roll of $4k (that's almost the biggest I've ever had it). I occasionly think perhaps the $105+9 games are too high for my 'roll (having only 35 at that level) , so I'm considering playing the $55+5's for a while. That means I've got 65+ buyins, and can afford the downswings.

    I also notice I seem to play better just two-tabling than I do four-tabling. So I'm going to reduce and play just 2x at a time. That may be something you want to consider also?

    Good luck & keep us informed.

    - Simon
  15. koolkat koolkat is offline

    Jamestown, TN
    United States

    Posts: 204
    Joined: Oct 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 10:52pm) in reply to koolkat

    Thanks for the help guys. I really appreciate it.
    Thread Starter
  16. amlove amlove is offline

    Seattle, WA
    United States

    Posts: 488
    Joined: Jun 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 11:07pm) in reply to lwrunner103

    lwrunner, do you really think that was such a bad call? perhaps it was against your range but i think there are many players who I am ahead of their range with 6s since the antes give an added incentive to shove. also winning gives me the chip lead here, which i think should be factored in a little bit. I could be wrong though as I know I have been missing too many pushes, missing calls I should be making, and making stubborn calls due to running bad. I need to study ranges more.
  17. 007Mart 007Mart is offline

    Bristol
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 54
    Joined: Sep 06

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 11:28pm) in reply to koolkat

    If you want to see a downswing check out River Prayer (pokerstars)

    Thats a -$75,000 unrelenting downswing over the course of 700 games. Damnnnnnnnn.
  18. Jennifear Jennifear is offline

    Niagara Falls, NY
    United States

    Posts: 10,222
    Joined: Nov 05

    Jan 8th, 2007 (1/8/2007 11:31pm) in reply to koolkat

    Ten buyins is indeed nothing over a fifty (or even 100) game streak.

    Sharkscope me, PunkinBear, on FTP and stars. I have a nice fat ROI.

    Then click on the graphs on the left. You'll see that I have 100 game streaks on both sites that were in the red.

    Then go to the leaderboard and repeat with the top guys. You'll see the same.

    So, over 100 games anything can happen.

    Here's my advice:

    - realize that variance will happen, good and bad

    - anaylze your game during the bad spots. The worst that can happen is you analyze a game that is perfect, and you realize it's not your fault.
  19. NoName360 NoName360 is offline

    Carmel, IN
    United States

    Posts: 350
    Joined: May 06

    Jan 10th, 2007 (1/10/2007 5:57am) in reply to Jennifear

    Right now I'm in the middle of a downswing. I'm 8 tabling $16 turbos. I'd say its 75% variance and 25% bad momentum (I've made bad plays out of plain inexperience.) When I say inexperience I mean I've never started a set of SNG's on a downswing like this.

    That being said I'm going to dominate the $16's within the next few days, because I'm bankrolled for stuff like this, and this thread has helped me a lot.

    http://sngaddict.blogspot.com
    - Mark
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