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Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 2:37pm)
Why shouldn't we be doing this? I mean we have seen so many situations and have such a good feel there are some spots where we just know villain has exactly AA.
Take this hand:
Edit: PT3 replayer didn't add chips stack to the text.
Hand #33171536955 begins at 2009/09/22
Micdiddy posts the ante of 70 <----24,507k
caprigli-1 posts the ante of 70
FreDXtrM posts the ante of 70
cwood1 posts the ante of 70
Escortmann posts the ante of 70
pabbi posts the ante of 70
50km posts the ante of 70 <----8,033 (obv)
TheFranny97 posts the ante of 70
gabysan posts the ante of 70 <---25,497 (has me slightly covered. Everyone else at table has 14k or less except Escortmann has 32k, so me and Gaby are big stacks)
Dealing down cards
Dealt to Micdiddy [Kc Kh]
TheFranny97 posts the small blind of 300
gabysan posts the big blind of 600
Micdiddy raises to 1,500.
caprigli-1 folds.
FreDXtrM folds.
cwood1 folds.
Escortmann folds.
pabbi calls 1,500.
50km raises to 8,033, and is all-in.
TheFranny97 folds.
gabysan calls 7,433.
Micdiddy ?
I mean, gaby cold calls an utg raise AND an all-in. I have been playing REALLY tight and am opening UTG, 50km knows I am playing tight and still ships, and gaby knowing all of this cold calls. Which scares me a lot more than him iso-shipping. IMO QQ/AK are too vulnerable to cold call like that, he'd have to ship or fold, so there is only one hand he can really be doing this with.
I mean why shouldn't good players just increase their edge that much more by folding in these obvious cooler spots? KK isn't AA. -
Posts: 6,352
Joined: Feb 06Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 2:43pm) in reply to Micdiddy
50km's range is obv. going to be wide.
What is gabysan's opening range? 3 betting range? Flatting range here? Iso-shoving range? What did gabysan have for breakfast? and what was his first pet's name? Until you know a player well enough to answer all of those questions, then you should not be folding KK to them preflop out've speculation.
I understand what you're saying, some situations are just blatently clear, but over the long run you will be losing money by folding KK in these situations as so many players just have no clue what they're doing and they'll be flatting worse hands...or hands like 99/TT/JJ/QQ/AK/AQ just because they want to see a flop first before they get their chips in.
Also we could use chip stacks in this situation. -
Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 2:53pm) in reply to rivverkiller
Thanks, pt3 didn't add them in and I just didn't notice. Fixed now.
And also, my point is, don't we kind of know all this stuff about villain? I mean we eat,breathe, sleep poker, so even though gaby is a new players to me, the situation is really old. And SO SO often ppl just think to myselfs "lol cooler" and ship it in because one oft he first lessons of NL holdem tournies it don't f KK pre. But why shouldn't this be another common knowledge type thing that goes out the window, like play tight in EP, or whatever. -
Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 2:55pm) in reply to pikappraider78
I agree that gaby prob would not fold JJ/QQ/AK, but I am sure that gaby would iso ship those hands 'cause they are vulnerable against my range.
Can we also agree that Gaby cannot fold if I ship it here ever??? Then why would he JUST CALL? If he iso-ships JJ and I snap with KK, then it's the same for him as if he just called, I shipped and he called, except by iso-shipping he might fold out a race situation, or maybe QQ (though I doubt it, but in his kind he could). It's the cold call that bus me 'cause that has to be exactly AA, he's inviting me into the pot knowing his hand is not vulnerable except to a two outer or whatever. -
thats a really good point imo
Originally Posted by Micdiddy
Thanks, pt3 didn't add them in and I just didn't notice. Fixed now.
And also, my point is, don't we kind of know all this stuff about villain? I mean we eat,breathe, sleep poker, so even though gaby is a new players to me, the situation is really old. And SO SO often ppl just think to myselfs "lol cooler" and ship it in because one oft he first lessons of NL holdem tournies it don't f KK pre. But why shouldn't this be another common knowledge type thing that goes out the window, like play tight in EP, or whatever.
its the same thing with guys always saying dont fold AK pre with like 30bbs but so often your just racing at best and sometimes even up against AA and KK so i think thats another point, in my mind when the sitation is right we can fold hands like AK after we 3bet and get shoved on because were basically never ahead and there is really not point in calling when behind i think it may be better to just fold and wait for KK or AA yourself so we can trap the bad players that are willing to overplay hands like JJ -
Posts: 6,352
Joined: Feb 06Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:01pm) in reply to Micdiddy
Playing tight in early position is still generally right. I'm not sure why most lower limit players open up their early position raises as they don't need to worry about balancing their early position opening ranges, and they'll get flatted too often where it might even be -EV to be opening super light in early position. Also most players just play their cards so they're not really considering that you opened in early position.Originally Posted by Micdiddy
Thanks, pt3 didn't add them in and I just didn't notice. Fixed now.
And also, my point is, don't we kind of know all this stuff about villain? I mean we eat,breathe, sleep poker, so even though gaby is a new players to me, the situation is really old. And SO SO often ppl just think to myselfs "lol cooler" and ship it in because one oft he first lessons of NL holdem tournies it don't f KK pre. But why shouldn't this be another common knowledge type thing that goes out the window, like play tight in EP, or whatever.
And folding KK is not an instinctive thing. You have to be positive that AA is the only hand in their range, and you just can't do that without knowing the player inside and out. Like I would never in my life fold KK to a random. I mean, unless Pearljammer is cold 5 betting with no fold equity, I can't think of many situations in tourneys where it'd be profitable to fold KK...especially as aggressive as poker is these days. -
Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:13pm) in reply to rivverkiller
Ok, ic your point. I def agree it is important to know FOR SURE that AA is the only hand in his range, which is tough. But yet these situations occur so often, it is almost impossible to have enough history with a guy to know to fold from history alone. I mean your pearljammer example is good, only because a lot of people have a lot of histroy with him or have known (of) him for years. But does that mean we only fold KK pre once in like the 10 years pearljammer cold 5bets w/ no fe? 'Cause as daily grinders we run KK into AA, maybe not daily but very very often, and other players run theur KK into our AA. The edge would be enormous if we actually just listen to that warning inside our head saying "he has AA and ONLY AA. Fold.".Originally Posted by rivverkiller
Playing tight in early position is still generally right. I'm not sure why most lower limit players open up their early position raises as they don't need to worry about balancing their early position opening ranges, and they'll get flatted too often where it might even be -EV to be opening super light in early position. Also most players just play their cards so they're not really considering that you opened in early position.
And folding KK is not an instinctive thing. You have to be positive that AA is the only hand in their range, and you just can't do that without knowing the player inside and out. Like I would never in my life fold KK to a random. I mean, unless Pearljammer is cold 5 betting with no fold equity, I can't think of many situations in tourneys where it'd be profitable to fold KK...especially as aggressive as poker is these days.
I know it is hard to put someone on a range of just one hand, yet we seem to do it all the time. There are times where I am in front of my comp and just start calling everyone's hand, like "trip sevens vs. AK" and then it happens. And I am sure we all do this. Yes it is harder pre-flop, but still possible. -
andressoprano
whaddya think of my game?
Posts: 5,224
Joined: Jan 07Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:17pm) in reply to Micdiddy
We see posts where KK ran into AA because people don't post when their KK faces 77-QQ, KQss, A5os, etc. Simple as that.
If I had a dollar for every time I stacked off with KK preflop being ahead, and had to pay 100 for every time I was behind, I'd be rich. -
Posts: 9,352
Joined: Sep 06Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:19pm) in reply to Micdiddy
Because you don't KNOW villain has EXACTLY AA.
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Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:29pm) in reply to andressoprano
Ok, well I DEFINITELY stack of pre w/ KK a huge portion of the time. Probably almost everytime before this one and maybe a few other similar situations where AA stuck out like a sore thumb.Originally Posted by andressoprano
We see posts where KK ran into AA because people don't post when their KK faces 77-QQ, KQss, A5os, etc. Simple as that.
If I had a dollar for every time I stacked off with KK preflop being ahead, and had to pay 100 for every time I was behind, I'd be rich.
I think their can be a progression in winning poker players, whereas now it is "I only f KK when an uber nit 5bets" or whatever, eventually we can start weaning that down and finder thinner not as obvious spots to fold KK, where their range is still just AA.
Just like how some players have perfected (or close to it) pre-flop 3betting and 4betting because they find the most marginal spots where their 3b or 4b is still correct, whereas in the past ppl only 4b AA or KK 'cause they weren't smart enough to figure out how light there range can be for a profitable 4b. Nowadays ppl don't even put thought into folding KK pre, whereas if someone really tried to figure it out there are prob a lot more spots to F then even the best players know of.
Kind of get what I am saying?
I still generally stack off w/ KK, but why not try to be ahead of the curve and get that equtiy by getting away from super sick coolers, but still coolering other ppl that can't get away from it/. -
WHO CARES EVEN IF HE SHOWED ME ONE ACE I CALL! DO NOT FOLD KK PRE!
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Posts: 2,039
Joined: Aug 07Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:29pm) in reply to rocksolid124
the thing is though is that this guy isnt a pro. he could be thinking oh i have a pair of 88 ill call this guy is short. so many players still just literally dont haVE a clue. and if he does have a clue he can def flat qq and shiit to induce.... i mean granted he SHOULD be isoing but since when do random players make the right decision. with all that xtra money in the pot too were being laid such ridic odds and we have kk.
im sorry but making an assumption that his range is AA only and basing your play off that is ludicrous. even if his range is as tight as qq+ its a great spot for us with the dead money in the pot. theres no way hes not getting it in with jj and qq here and probalby ak. plus we can also make an educated guess that between a utg open the flat and the 15bb shove someone has to have an ace which lowers his aa probability as well.
folding kk can be correct pre but only in a rare spot like at 10-20 3000 effective and utg opens utg + 1 3bets and like mp min 4 bets and then someone jams. then we fold kk. in this spot helllllllls no. -
Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 3:42pm) in reply to pikappraider78
Ok, thanks for responding again, but I guess my problem is that I don't just want to assume Gaby is a bad player. And playing w. him he seemed capable and strong and not someone who just cold calls w/ 66 or something 'cause he's braindead or whatever.Originally Posted by pikappraider78
the thing is though is that this guy isnt a pro. he could be thinking oh i have a pair of 88 ill call this guy is short. so many players still just literally dont haVE a clue. and if he does have a clue he can def flat qq and shiit to induce.... i mean granted he SHOULD be isoing but since when do random players make the right decision. with all that xtra money in the pot too were being laid such ridic odds and we have kk.
im sorry but making an assumption that his range is AA only and basing your play off that is ludicrous. even if his range is as tight as qq+ its a great spot for us with the dead money in the pot. theres no way hes not getting it in with jj and qq here and probalby ak. plus we can also make an educated guess that between a utg open the flat and the 15bb shove someone has to have an ace which lowers his aa probability as well.
folding kk can be correct pre but only in a rare spot like at 10-20 3000 effective and utg opens utg + 1 3bets and like mp min 4 bets and then someone jams. then we fold kk. in this spot helllllllls no.
And at the same time whereas QQ wouldd be a fine hand to induce there normally, I had been playing really tight for a long time. Yes I could have JJ, but knowing he knows I am playing tight and still cold calling there, I mean if I consider folding KK what chance does JJ have! Which is why, again unless we just magically assume a player that was playing good poker and built up a big stack just decided to spew it off for no reason, he basically has to have AA.
Maybe he is good, but not good enough to know re-shipping QQ there is slightly better than induce flatting, and I guess a lot of ppl are saying if there is even the slightest doubt he had A I should go with it?
But I mean, shouldn't there ALWAYS be the slightest doubt? Idk, I think going w. my read here is just so important, and any healrthy poker player maybe should leave like 5% chance of error. Tho I am not sure 5% is enough to justify calling.shoving. -
Mtts i agree you can never fold kings pre but what about in this spot? Of course i was never folding with 120bbs effective but what about 150bbs or 200? I mean what other hand is a reg (which he was) going to 5bet shove over my utg 4 bet?
pokerstars Game #33350019241: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2009/09/27 13:56:37 ET
Table 'Sappho V' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: koshka-mur ($11 in chips)
Seat 3: $exy Time ($131.55 in chips)
Seat 4: katiemikexxx ($159.60 in chips)
Seat 5: souperplus ($120.05 in chips)
Seat 6: pajaromacho ($64.80 in chips)
koshka-mur: posts small blind $0.50
$exy Time: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to katiemikexxx [Kh Kd]
katiemikexxx: raises $3 to $4
souperplus: raises $8 to $12
pajaromacho: folds
koshka-mur: folds
$exy Time: folds
katiemikexxx: raises $19 to $31
souperplus: raises $89.05 to $120.05 and is all-in
katiemikexxx: calls $89.05
*** FLOP *** [2s 9c 3d]
*** TURN *** [2s 9c 3d] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [2s 9c 3d Td] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
katiemikexxx: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
souperplus: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)
P*O*K*E*R433 said, "hahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha"
souperplus collected $239.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $241.60 | Rake $2
Board [2s 9c 3d Td 5h]
Seat 2: koshka-mur (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: $exy Time (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: katiemikexxx showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: souperplus showed [As Ac] and won ($239.60) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: pajaromacho (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) -
Posts: 2,250
Joined: Aug 07Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 7:10pm) in reply to u shove i call
Good thread, but I dont think anyone is taking chip utility into account. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
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Posts: 732
Joined: Dec 08Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 7:12pm) in reply to u shove i call
don't 4bet if you think that his 5 bet range is only AA. he is never flatting the 4 bet so 4 betting makes no sense.Originally Posted by u shove i call
Mtts i agree you can never fold kings pre but what about in this spot? Of course i was never folding with 120bbs effective but what about 150bbs or 200? I mean what other hand is a reg (which he was) going to 5bet shove over my utg 4 bet?
pokerstars Game #33350019241: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2009/09/27 13:56:37 ET
Table 'Sappho V' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: koshka-mur ($11 in chips)
Seat 3: $exy Time ($131.55 in chips)
Seat 4: katiemikexxx ($159.60 in chips)
Seat 5: souperplus ($120.05 in chips)
Seat 6: pajaromacho ($64.80 in chips)
koshka-mur: posts small blind $0.50
$exy Time: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to katiemikexxx [Kh Kd]
katiemikexxx: raises $3 to $4
souperplus: raises $8 to $12
pajaromacho: folds
koshka-mur: folds
$exy Time: folds
katiemikexxx: raises $19 to $31
souperplus: raises $89.05 to $120.05 and is all-in
katiemikexxx: calls $89.05
*** FLOP *** [2s 9c 3d]
*** TURN *** [2s 9c 3d] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [2s 9c 3d Td] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
katiemikexxx: shows [Kh Kd] (a pair of Kings)
souperplus: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)
P*O*K*E*R433 said, "hahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha"
souperplus collected $239.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $241.60 | Rake $2
Board [2s 9c 3d Td 5h]
Seat 2: koshka-mur (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: $exy Time (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: katiemikexxx showed [Kh Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: souperplus showed [As Ac] and won ($239.60) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: pajaromacho (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) -
Posts: 834
Joined: Feb 07Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 7:15pm) in reply to swd805
I'm such a donk.. wtf is chip utility?Originally Posted by swd805
Good thread, but I dont think anyone is taking chip utility into account. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
to the OP you should clearly be folding KK in this spot.. these guys are just leveling geniuses and want to see you spew. Obv you know he has AA and to me that equals snap fkn fold. GL
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> -
Posts: 2,250
Joined: Aug 07Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 7:20pm) in reply to rivverkiller
lol its a level icu
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"> -
Posts: 1,688
Joined: Dec 05Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 8:14pm) in reply to Micdiddy
Not that results matter, but here they are:
Hand #33171536955 begins at 2009/09/22
Micdiddy posts the ante of 70
caprigli-1 posts the ante of 70
FreDXtrM posts the ante of 70
cwood1 posts the ante of 70
Escortmann posts the ante of 70
pabbi posts the ante of 70
50km posts the ante of 70
TheFranny97 posts the ante of 70
gabysan posts the ante of 70
Dealing down cards
Dealt to Micdiddy [Kc Kh]
TheFranny97 posts the small blind of 300
gabysan posts the big blind of 600
Micdiddy raises to 1,500.
caprigli-1 folds.
FreDXtrM folds.
cwood1 folds.
Escortmann folds.
pabbi calls 1,500.
50km raises to 8,033, and is all-in.
TheFranny97 folds.
gabysan calls 7,433.
Micdiddy raises to 24,507, and is all-in.
pabbi folds.
gabysan calls 16,474.
Dealing Flop [7d 4c Jd]
Dealing Turn [3c]
Dealing River [Jc]
gabysan shows [6h 6s]
gabysan has Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes
Micdiddy shows [Kc Kh]
Micdiddy has Two Pair, Kings and Jacks
50km shows [8h 8s]
50km has Two Pair, Jacks and Eights
Micdiddy wins 59,477 -
Posts: 1,102
Joined: Oct 06Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 8:36pm) in reply to Micdiddy
sick bragOriginally Posted by Micdiddy
Not that results matter, but here they are:
Hand #33171536955 begins at 2009/09/22
Micdiddy posts the ante of 70
caprigli-1 posts the ante of 70
FreDXtrM posts the ante of 70
cwood1 posts the ante of 70
Escortmann posts the ante of 70
pabbi posts the ante of 70
50km posts the ante of 70
TheFranny97 posts the ante of 70
gabysan posts the ante of 70
Dealing down cards
Dealt to Micdiddy [Kc Kh]
TheFranny97 posts the small blind of 300
gabysan posts the big blind of 600
Micdiddy raises to 1,500.
caprigli-1 folds.
FreDXtrM folds.
cwood1 folds.
Escortmann folds.
pabbi calls 1,500.
50km raises to 8,033, and is all-in.
TheFranny97 folds.
gabysan calls 7,433.
Micdiddy raises to 24,507, and is all-in.
pabbi folds.
gabysan calls 16,474.
Dealing Flop [7d 4c Jd]
Dealing Turn [3c]
Dealing River [Jc]
gabysan shows [6h 6s]
gabysan has Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes
Micdiddy shows [Kc Kh]
Micdiddy has Two Pair, Kings and Jacks
50km shows [8h 8s]
50km has Two Pair, Jacks and Eights
Micdiddy wins 59,477 -
Posts: 205
Joined: Dec 08Sep 29th, 2009 (9/29/2009 10:45pm) in reply to Micdiddy
heres the original thread that lead to OP thinking
http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-for...727209#4727209
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2012-05-27 04:28:29
@dDeoxyribo @Gags30poker @Firaldo87poker i get in Friday at 8:20PM
JapanRep420
2012-05-27 04:25:31
Netflix and sleep soon. Getting up early to make that money before soccer tomorrow. #nodaysoff #grinder
RichMuny
2012-05-27 04:16:48
Sunday #Poker Daily Action Plan: Let's tell the House Commerce Committee to support poker! http://t.co/mxRdL8UD
ChrisBrauch
2012-05-27 04:15:25
I am a tailgate pro. Went around after the game meeting people and getting beers. #itsawesomebeingawesome @mooresaml
ChrisBrauch
2012-05-27 04:10:21
Wow I love getting drunk tweeting all night and then reading them soberish. Lots of fun and lets me know what i did that night #awesome
dDeoxyribo
2012-05-27 04:08:11
When do u ppl get into Vegas? @theczar19 @Gags30poker @Firaldo87poker or anyone else I couldnt care less about?
HighlandFox
2012-05-27 04:06:04
RT @SomeCallMeDick: Why is @PhilGalfond playing 2-5 plo with us http://t.co/Oerov5iB
Cracker76
2012-05-27 03:48:14
http://t.co/OAMTBwev
Latest blog entry, enjoy. http://t.co/DSgwHfw2
PocketFives Rankings
| Player | PLB | PRO | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|
1 |
Flush_Entity | 1st 7,569 |
2nd 15 |
|
2 |
Gettin Daize | 3rd 7,210 |
3rd 16 |
|
3 |
Big Huni | 9th 6,652 |
1st 14 |
|
4 |
weavel | 2nd 7,408 |
13th 28 |
|
5 |
mtstackin88 | 4th 7,034 |
10th 23 |
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P5s Members |
Prev Rank |
||
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88336 | 994 | 3rd | |
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87509 | 184 | 5th |
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