hey guys just moved to this table so no real reads... should i be 3betting here or shoving have about 25 bbs effective i think. and am oop dont really want to whiff flop and have to cbet and play flop oop tell me what u think

pokerstars Game #58063755948: Tournament #408010421, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (2000/4000) - 2011/02/21 17:52:36 ET
Table '408010421 152' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Rickie84 (172066 in chips)
Seat 2: HollyWoodC's (123747 in chips)
Seat 3: donk14 (113276 in chips)
Seat 4: Andrei926 (25252 in chips)
Seat 5: scubystaxx (51532 in chips)
Seat 6: lesterdrugs (202103 in chips)
Seat 7: przyluda (170738 in chips)
Seat 8: bulum77 (64132 in chips)
Seat 9: Berrry9 (101884 in chips)
Rickie84: posts the ante 400
HollyWoodC's: posts the ante 400
donk14: posts the ante 400
Andrei926: posts the ante 400
scubystaxx: posts the ante 400
lesterdrugs: posts the ante 400
przyluda: posts the ante 400
bulum77: posts the ante 400
Berrry9: posts the ante 400
scubystaxx: posts small blind 2000
lesterdrugs: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lesterdrugs [Ks Ad]
przyluda: folds
bulum77: folds
Berrry9: raises 4800 to 8800
Rickie84: folds
HollyWoodC's: calls 8800
donk14: folds
Andrei926: folds
scubystaxx: folds
lesterdrugs: raises 192903 to 201703 and is all-in

I prefer a raise of 45-55k. Hate to have the first raiser wake up with AA or KK. Our raise means strength and shows we committed. We should get the same fold(s) with less risk.

AK looks strong in our hand but squeels alot on the board. Just another pig with lipstick.

I dunno, I think this hand is one those player dependent hands, have you seen hands where HollyWood has flatted a raise b4? Is berrry raising every pot?
You have 50 BB left or M of 21. This is a perfect example of overplaying AK, you could flat and see if the flop is desirable, but you could be up against 2 pocket pair and get two callers to a shove.

Im a nit tho so tifwiw

 

Originally Posted by kelmann333

Where are we calling a 4-bet shove? did I miss something? We are reraising a raiser who is not all-in and a smooth caller.

Please tell me you're not advocating folding to a 4-bet. Because that's plain terrible. If so, what range could you possibly assign to the villain that would justify a fold to a 4-bet?

The only reason to 3bet and not shove here is to induce a 4-bet from one of the other players. Since you're OOP and this is a $5 tournament, this is a risky line. You could end getting flatted and having to play AK OOP, which is far from desirable. Jam it in and if you run into AA or KK, so be it, just a cooler.

 

Originally Posted by kelmann333

tyson, I'm responding to grapsfan. No where am I folding; not sure where you see that.

I do see reasons to shove; lately I've seen more and more AA, KK limp and min raise EP and then shove when raised.

Your posts lack detail. I have no clue what you're doing, which is the problem.

In your original post you said raise to 45-55k. graps responded, (paraphrasing) why 3bet when you're going to call a 4-bet shove anyway, it's best to just shove. You responded "where are we calling a 4-bet shove?". I assumed this meant you were 3-betting but folding to a 4-bet, which would be awful.

So to get the record straight, what is your plan after you 3bet to 45-55k? If you get 4-bet do call or fold? If you get flatted, what is your plan on the flop?

if your not calling a 4 bet shove dont 3 bet, loosing all value ak has here and it may aswell be 72o

shove is best here imo, dont want to be flatted oop here and that will happen a lot more than 4 bet shoves at this level

kelman ur advice in almost every thread is flawed, i dislike flaming a poster but honestly you need to assess your own game - visit a training site

 

Originally Posted by kelmann333

what is your plan after you 3bet to 45-55k? my plan is to take it down here.

If you get 4-bet do call or fold? this depends on his image and betting patterns. If he is uber-tight, I might fold. AK is not a made hand. I know people love it, but we still need to connect in this spot. We can hope villian has AX, but do a 4bet shove with an inferior Ace at this stage?

If you get flatted, what is your plan on the flop? we have position, so it depends on flop and what villian does. Pot control definately.

Seriously?? We are getting 2.8/1 on a call if he 4 bet shoves over our 55K re raise.... this is horrible. forgetting the factors of it being a low stake MTT or the fact you have AK, if your going to 3 bet pre, what purpose is it for unless your going to call a 4 bet? You cant assign him AA and KK as his only two hands in his re ship range.

If you get flatted then theres a million in the pot and you still call any flop surely?

 

Originally Posted by mdschluter

i had a hand like this yesterday at a stars FT. i pushed for a massive amount like this over a raiser with my AK and the chip leader called with KK. either way, i have always hated AK and think it gets players into a lot of trouble when it is really just a drawing hand. if i were u, i would just smooth call and hope to hit an ace or king; if not, just fold the flop and lose 1/21st of ur stack.

thank you. this is my point.

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

I did this yesterday and the villain called with AQ. I doubled up. I did it again and the villain called with JJ. I spiked a K and doubled up. But that doesn't matter.

One instance and what happened in that instance is the wrong attitude. You play against an opponent's range and calculate the odds of you winning the hand against the range you believe your opponent is holding. Sometimes you run into the top of the range and lose. Other times you get called by the bottom of the range and double up. The point is: attempt to assign a range and play against that range.

In this specific case, if you think the range is KK+, AK, then you should definitely flat call here. However, that's rarely ever going to be the range. Flatting AK OOP with 2 players already in the pot is a -cEV play. If you're going to flat here with that size stack, I think you'd be better off folding pre.

Ok, I hear what you are saying but on this part why is it -ev to call 4400 into a pot of 27300 you're getting just over 6-1 odds

I don't see AK pre playing well against their ranges, however if the flop is favorable you can lead out with a bet, again this is all completely dependent on how the villains have been playing up to this point.

 

Originally Posted by 1eyed_Ace

Ok, I hear what you are saying but on this part why is it -ev to call 4400 into a pot of 27300 you're getting just over 6-1 odds

You're right. Sorry, I was being a jackass. It's not -cEV to flat here. I was being sarcastic in an attempt to make my point that just flatting here is bad. Flatting is not -cEV, but I think it's suboptimal. In fact, unless I had a strong read, I'm pretty confident I would never flat here.

 

Originally Posted by 1eyed_Ace

I don't see AK pre playing well against their ranges, however if the flop is favorable you can lead out with a bet, again this is all completely dependent on how the villains have been playing up to this point.

What ranges are you assigning? AK plays pretty well against most ranges, so I'm curious what ranges you're assigning.

 

Originally Posted by 1eyed_Ace

Again, this is all player dependent, as played berrys range is wide,55+, KQ+.......but hollywoods flat is gonna be way smaller (on average,) QQ+, maybe AKsooted. So if you shove your prolly at best in a race, but good chance of being the dog.

Oh, dear lord, we need to talk about range assignment.

In a $5 MTT, you don't think someone's flatting with a baby pair, hoping to flop a set? Or suited connectors hoping to flop a monster? Or AJ/AQ, because he knows those are fairly good starting hands but he doesn't think they're strong enough to raise?

Never mind he really doesn't have the implied odds for any of these...it's a $5 MTT! Some of these guys, even at this stage in the tournament, will suck.

I cannot think of a tournament where I'd assign a random a range that tight. Hell, I can't think of a single player I'd assign a range that tight.

 

Originally Posted by 1eyed_Ace

All im trying to say is this is a classic example of going broke with AK when you don't have to.
Me personally Im not just shoving my stack when there are warning signs and I'm OOP... not unless i got a solid read on villain.
And def not 3 bet folding... calling is the best option here.

Shoving Pre or 3 bet commiting yourself, eliminates being OOP, so if anything thats a reason for it and not against.

No one has to go broke on any hand, they can fold their way into a short stack then wait for AA or that dream flop and put all their chips in, however your profit will come from recognising edges other players dont and exploiting them. Recognising the range of the initial raiser and the MP flatter, and seeing a position to either take down a nice pot pre or get it in for a big pot with decent equity is certainly that. While calling pre is not terrible, its sub optimal play.
I think we are ranging way too narrow, and placing ourselves behind way too often.

yes you will bust a lot with ak loosing to flips, vs aa and kk and even aq aj a10 etc etc

however i cant tell you how many times ako and aks have won me huge pots, small pots, and enabled me to go on and win a tourny

not going into the theory of this hand again because its been posted a lot here

this is a classic scenario of whether you want to go for a deep run and mayb a top 3 or jst blind away to a min cash

Wow...2 things: A) Shoving turns your hand faceup B) Villains range isnt even close to that tight just because he showed up w KK here. I play $5 mtts all the time and see so much trash flatted its not even funny. I see Q4ss and K6o flatting in spots that make no sense whatsoever. Even if villian is tight we can narrow it down to quite a few of the broadway hands and all PP. I really like throwing out 78hh and shit like that as well, because, well, its a $5 mtt and thats the type of hands $5 mtt players show up with a lot. Even if he's tight he's still flatting a WAAAAAAAAAAAY wider range than you somehow think he is.

You open shoved 50 bb deep. THAT is spewy. Getting it in pre here isnt spewy. Theres a difference. I'm calling you 100% of the time with ANY pp when you snap cram like that. Reraise to something around 27500 or so and see what develops. Then even when villian 4bets you you still have the chance to get away. I hate raise/folding here but when someone flats/ reraises a raise behind them, they are 98% of the time holding a HUGE hand. Occasionally they show up with 77-99/AQ type hand and they're just trying to push the other guy out because they think they're good pre, but this is almost always a huge hand. I raise fold here. Never ever open jam AK that deep.

i dont mind the 3bet call here but like has been said your only 3 betting to induce a shove, and the thought of folding to a shove shouldnt even be part of the thought process. shoving 25bb effective is fine tho