100 cube 9 max on ftp. No history or anything yet, no reads on opener either. da can be flatting wide but i dont put it past him to flat big either. What range are you 4betting here (assuming we are never flatting anything in our range) and what size are you making the 4bet?

Full Tilt Poker Game #15757488649: $33,000 Guarantee (1r+1a) (114398777), Table 11 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:16:33 ET - 2009/11/02
Seat 1: da_professional (8,085)
Seat 2: tedsfishfry (5,990)
Seat 3: doubledave22 (9,245)
Seat 4: gboro780 (5,485)
Seat 5: AnaP14 (7,030)
Seat 6: Big Dann (8,119)
Seat 7: insanocut (5,150)
Seat 8: Try_Tilt_Me (5,045)
Seat 9: greenerbels1 (6,470)
gboro780 posts the small blind of 60
AnaP14 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to doubledave22 [Xx Xx]
Big Dann folds
insanocut has 15 seconds left to act
insanocut has timed out
insanocut folds
insanocut is sitting out
Try_Tilt_Me folds
greenerbels1 raises to 360
da_professional calls 360
tedsfishfry raises to 1,320
doubledave22 has 15 seconds left to act

 

Originally Posted by rainmanrcp

Are you trying to figure out what range you should be 5 betting deeb? sorry if thats a dumb question im just not sure of what you mean :S

What range should i be 4bet squeezing for value here. And what size, do i want to call shoves from the orig open or da_prof after 4betting? Or what size looks the weakest/strongest/just what size should i make it and why with what hands

do u mean whats ur sizing on an open raise in this spot? or your sizing for a 4b or shove? this deep id be opening 3x with my whole range if im starting the action. Im assuming u meant u had no reads on the opener b.c id guess u have atleast a general idea of da_pro and deebs tendencies and styles (ummm agggro). ive noticed that shaun is a little looser with his 3bs in pre ante squeeze and 3b spots then most regs.

that being said.... im never going to be flatting in this spot. should be obv why, to shallow to set mine and i dont want to broadcast that i have AA or KK if i do in fact have it. no one is deep enough to spazz 5b light if we do in fact 4bsmall so id either jam or min 4bet my value range here. no one has fold equity if we 4b, so it really depends on wheter we want to look strong or weak. i think shoving looks a little weaker but i mean anything we do is going to look really strong in this spot from this posistion.

id probably shove my whole range and this range would be tight here, probably jj and AK. if shaun was deeper and had the same effective stack as us id be min 4betting my value range to try to induce a 5b spazz or a stop n go by him.

i do think though that this is one of those spots where we look so strong that we could probably be 4b or shoving a wider range since we "have" to have a monster here. were risking like 8k max to win 2k and if da folds its like 6500 to win 2k. if i wasnt studying id do some equity calcs against a few calling ranges to see how wide we can actually shove. rele interesting spot though since most of the time people will just autopilot a really tight range here when its probably a spot where we can chip up nicely. especially with your tight image dave, i bet you could get alot of folds in this spot and get away with alot here.

 

Originally Posted by pikappraider78

do u mean whats ur sizing on an open raise in this spot? or your sizing for a 4b or shove? this deep id be opening 3x with my whole range if im starting the action. Im assuming u meant u had no reads on the opener b.c id guess u have atleast a general idea of da_pro and deebs tendencies and styles (ummm agggro). ive noticed that shaun is a little looser with his 3bs in pre ante squeeze and 3b spots then most regs.

that being said.... im never going to be flatting in this spot. should be obv why, to shallow to set mine and i dont want to broadcast that i have AA or KK if i do in fact have it. no one is deep enough to spazz 5b light if we do in fact 4bsmall so id either jam or min 4bet my value range here. no one has fold equity if we 4b, so it really depends on wheter we want to look strong or weak. i think shoving looks a little weaker but i mean anything we do is going to look really strong in this spot from this posistion.

id probably shove my whole range and this range would be tight here, probably jj and AK. if shaun was deeper and had the same effective stack as us id be min 4betting my value range to try to induce a 5b spazz or a stop n go by him.

yes im asking what size my 4b should be and i like ur logic. Im never flatting, not even KK/AA cause it does seem obvious. But like u said any size i make it here makes me look huge. Now if i do 4b here and his range becomes QQ+ AK for getting it in vs me then what diff does it make for me having JJ opposed to like 55. its like a 1 or 2% difference in equity w/ 22 opposed to JJ vs QQ+ AK and i dont think any of the other players in the hand are shoving <QQ either. So i propose another question, if we can say JJ is fine to get in here (assuming i literally click it back to 2600 and fold to the original openers shove since i wont have the right price with an underpair vs QQ+ AK) then could we potentially do this w/ something like 22 and see the same equity in the play long run?

i'm really confused too, not because of the OP, but because an interesting poker discussion could actually break out on p5's

 

Originally Posted by Arizona Bay

Are you proposing 4 betting with 22-JJ and folding to the originalopener and calling shoves from the two others or just deeb or none ofthem at all? I understand that the equity of 22-JJ is pretty much thesame against QQ+/AK but I'm not sure what the point of yourhypothetical is.

ya i mean we'd only "have" to call deeb i think w/ 22-JJ. This is assuming we narrow ranges to QQ+ AK. Im not 100% sure what the math is exactly if the orig opener shoves but there was 2k in the pot pre, 2600*2 (after my 4b and the shove of the orig opener) and he has like 4k left. Ya shit it looks like we have to call orig opener too just bcuz of how much is in the pot assuming he still gets in AK. I guess we'd just fold to da idk this spot seems strange

and i edited the op

 

Originally Posted by Cre8ive

I like an all in with your whole range.

just seems unnecessary considering we wouldnt have to call da_prof's shove if we 4b smaller (and hes capable of flatting big here). We will have to call orig openers shove regardless of what we do i just looked at the math we'd be getting 2.8:1 and unless he folds AK which hell he might i cant fold to just him. If they both shove ya im folding tho

I think anything else is bad. Can't say why right now too many tables.

 

Originally Posted by doubledave22

i agree, i can only fold to da_prof. All im saying is i dont see the difference between jj and lower pairs. Maybe i should just be getting QQ+ AK in i guess. Also (this is to cre8) there are still ppl behind me that i (maybe?) can fold to if they happen to wake up either cause i defff dont get it in good vs cold 5 bets lol. What sucks is i probably have to call both shoves too looking it at but im not 100% sure. I think im over the hypothetical and im really just concerned with what we'd do with JJ here.

Ok well I'd stick with playing this spot for clear value and get it in with QQ+/AK and just fold JJ but you may be able to justify some complex maneuver with JJ and still show a profit but I'm going to leave that to better players.

 

Originally Posted by doubledave22

 

Originally Posted by pikappraider78

do u mean whats ur sizing on an open raise in this spot? or your sizing for a 4b or shove? this deep id be opening 3x with my whole range if im starting the action. Im assuming u meant u had no reads on the opener b.c id guess u have atleast a general idea of da_pro and deebs tendencies and styles (ummm agggro). ive noticed that shaun is a little looser with his 3bs in pre ante squeeze and 3b spots then most regs.

that being said.... im never going to be flatting in this spot. should be obv why, to shallow to set mine and i dont want to broadcast that i have AA or KK if i do in fact have it. no one is deep enough to spazz 5b light if we do in fact 4bsmall so id either jam or min 4bet my value range here. no one has fold equity if we 4b, so it really depends on wheter we want to look strong or weak. i think shoving looks a little weaker but i mean anything we do is going to look really strong in this spot from this posistion.

id probably shove my whole range and this range would be tight here, probably jj and AK. if shaun was deeper and had the same effective stack as us id be min 4betting my value range to try to induce a 5b spazz or a stop n go by him.

yes im asking what size my 4b should be and i like ur logic. Im never flatting, not even KK/AA cause it does seem obvious. But like u said any size i make it here makes me look huge. Now if i do 4b here and his range becomes QQ+ AK for getting it in vs me then what diff does it make for me having JJ opposed to like 55. its like a 1 or 2% difference in equity w/ 22 opposed to JJ vs QQ+ AK and i dont think any of the other players in the hand are shoving <QQ either. So i propose another question, if we can say JJ is fine to get in here (assuming i literally click it back to 2600 and fold to the original openers shove since i wont have the right price with an underpair vs QQ+ AK) then could we potentially do this w/ something like 22 and see the same equity in the play long run?

thats kinda what i was getting at with the end of my post. if were shipping or 4b calling, we look so strong and get so many folds in spots like this that jj or atleast 1010 is the same as 22. do u think deeb is insta folding 1010 and jj here? if so then qq is literally 22. the equity from this spot is so heavily weighted towards fold equity that while most regs (including myself) auto pilot a tight range here QQ+ ak or w.e it is, this is probably a spot where there is some serious ev that the majority of players are missing just because they have bad cards. when i take a study break tomorrow im going to play with some 3b fold and 3b call ranges for deeb and see what i come up with. i think it would be super complicated to do calculations unless we assume the opener and da pro fold. does anyone know how to do these calcs if we do NOT assume they fold? and what do we have to do differently in this calc if we are assuming they dont auto fol.

theoretically we can ship any 2 if hes 3b folding enough. i wonder how often he actually needs to 3b fold here to jam atc. probably not as often as i or most people think

 

Originally Posted by the_dean22

2600 get it in with deeb and fold to other 2 with JJ sounds good. i think i could usually find a fold with JJ and your stack, but with the particular players at hand, i dont want to fold. also, i am fairly confident the orig raiser is folding AK after you cold 4b

Are you saying this from history with original raiser or do you think the 2600 4 bet sizing looks strong enough to rep solely AA or KK?

120+60+360+360+1320+2600= 4820

if da ships it is 5125 more to win 7725+4820 = 12545.

2.44:1 to call

If da is 5b'ing AK then I don't see how you can 4b/f.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.028% 33.74% 00.29% 117856188 1007454.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 65.972% 65.68% 00.29% 229438920 1007454.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

I'm pretty lost on peoples actual ranges here though so I'll just sit back.....

 

Originally Posted by the_dean22

2600 get it in with deeb and fold to other 2 with JJ sounds good. i think i could usually find a fold with JJ and your stack, but with the particular players at hand, i dont want to fold. also, i am fairly confident the orig raiser is folding AK after you cold 4b

winner winner chicken dinner

 

Originally Posted by rainmanrcp

Are you saying this from history with original raiser or do you think the 2600 4 bet sizing looks strong enough to rep solely AA or KK?

i just don't think many ppl, good or bad players, are going to stick AK in for a 5b in bels spot for 6,700 chips w/ 360 invested. also, i think QQ might be a fold in bels spot too really...so AK should be outta orig raisers 5b range so i think it makes it easy to fold jj to his shove...and it does suck the times u have to 4b and fold to orig raisers 5b shove, but that will happen such a small amount of the time that it won't keep me from value 4b JJ vs deeb in this spot

 

Originally Posted by Arizona Bay

You may be right that the OR may fold everything but KK+ making it eveneasier to fold JJ if he does 5 ball all in but what is Deeb's 5 betshoving range here? I would be surprised if it was wide enough for youto cold 4 bet hoping the others fold just to get it in vs him. I'm justnot convinced he is getting it in with hands like AJ and AQ or 88-1010 against doubledave like ever but I could be wrong...

even if this is the case and im forcing him to have KK+ then its gotta be +ev anyways. the difference between the times he raise/folds and when he raise/gets it in is gonna be well worth it if i force him to have top 1-2% of his range or w/e