Villain is udunwantnun. No history. He was at my table for about 15 hands and we played zero hands versus each other prior to this one. My only read is that villain blocked his OPR stats, meaning that he is at least competent enough to know what OPR is.

Feel free to discuss all streets, but know that I had a plan and felt solid about everything leading to the river. Villain hated the way I played the hand on every street and let me know afterward, so obviously there may be some room for discussion.

FINAL NOTE: I was in a bit of a leveling war with Ajeff, who was in the BB in this hand. I flatted villain's open to induce a light squeeze from Ajeff, which never came. I probably mix flatting and 3-betting in here pre-flop here pretty well (with the occasional fold depending on the opener), but that is my reason for flatting in this specific spot.

pokerstars Game #52508470399: Tournament #339010873, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (800/1600) - 2010/11/10 23:18:50 ET
Table '339010873 54' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Xmachine888 (36207 in chips)
Seat 2: topac_isback (27635 in chips)
Seat 3: stockdaddy (43060 in chips)
Seat 4: Poqaris (80001 in chips)
Seat 5: udunwantnun (114566 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: s.l. halper (68615 in chips)
Seat 7: oddball58 (30054 in chips)
Seat 8: Bo0sh79 (52006 in chips)
Seat 9: Ajeff007 (32717 in chips)
Xmachine888: posts the ante 150
topac_isback: posts the ante 150
stockdaddy: posts the ante 150
Poqaris: posts the ante 150
udunwantnun: posts the ante 150
s.l. halper: posts the ante 150
oddball58: posts the ante 150
Bo0sh79: posts the ante 150
Ajeff007: posts the ante 150
Bo0sh79: posts small blind 800
Ajeff007: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to s.l. halper [Ac Js]
Xmachine888: folds
udunwantnun has returned
topac_isback: folds
stockdaddy: folds
Poqaris: folds
udunwantnun: raises 2000 to 3600
s.l. halper: calls 3600
oddball58: folds
Bo0sh79: folds
Ajeff007: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jc Tc As]
udunwantnun: bets 5400
s.l. halper: calls 5400
*** TURN *** [Jc Tc As] [3s]
udunwantnun: checks
s.l. halper: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jc Tc As 3s] [8d]
udunwantnun: bets 17775
s.l. halper: calls 17775?
s.l. halper: raises 41690 to 59465 and is all-in?
s.l. halper: folds?!?!?
s.l. halper: does something else entirely?

I'm betting that turn 99% of the time.

As played, I'm probably shoving that river but I have a sick feeling that he spazzed with Qc9c or something...

 

Originally Posted by udunwantnun

Raise flop, bet turn, jam river.

I actually thought u had a weak Ax, Jx.

Fwiw, my line was precisely intended to rep what everyone in the thread think I had.

Probably only played 15 hands w/ you, but i was playing like 32/28/75/15 at that table.

I should stop telling ppl they played hands poorly.

p.s. quit being so sensitive at the tables

lol 3 people have responded, 1 didn't give a range, the other two suggested a pretty balanced range, so i guess you're trying to rep a range against which we should at least call and very likely shove?

Thx FG appreciate the thoughts (as always) at least you hit a lot of the bullet points I thought about as the hand went down.

udun- I did not post this in any way to criticize your play AT ALL. I think you played it well and that is a big part of the confusion/problem. I don't agree with your thought process on the way I played the hand but that's a small issue in the whole scheme of things.

Love to hear any other thoughts.

 

Originally Posted by udunwantnun

More than likely I didnt state it clealy. I'm still playing and I have a bad habit of thinking ahead of what im doing.....

Sry for the confusion, I'm saying i think bet bet bet would fold out alot of his range (I dont focus on hands unless im trying to do combinations) by river (if hes competent) when my goal is to stack him/get as many chips as possible. If I bet bet bet, he should suspect my range is probably ahead of his (if i bet flop, bet turn, im shoving river even if its an over shove). So I was attempting to make my hand look weak enough to keep in alot of his range while allowing me to bet larger and get called. I guess another way of saying it is pretend like I missed a draw or spazzed out w/ something to get called. Turns out he showed up with the top of his range.

If I could see his cards, Im not sure I would play the hand differently often. I'm still thrown off by him checking the turn.

Yea I understand/agree with your thinking here.

Again, I like a check on turn in halper's spot, tho a bet is certainly fine. There are certainly some hands in your (udun's) spot that we'd miss a street of value from, but I think more often we'd actually get one more street of value from other hands in your range, namely air. But that's perceiving you as somewhat of a random, not sure how true that actually is.

On river, just because you can value bet less that AJ doesn't mean we have to shove. I'd expect (in halper's shoes) you to fold most single pairs to the shove, and not have many 2p combinations to begin with, so a shove seems pretty meh.

FINAL THOUGHTS:

FG owns this thread.

I still do not see value in raising this messy flop, given: 1) I did not want to overrep my hand against the most likely value hands that I can beat (AK/AQ/AT); 2) I had the Ace of clubs, taking away the most likely pair + draw and 3) once I raise/get it in I am in serious trouble against villain's value range, which starts at straights and ends with pair + draws. I figured to be ahead of a lot of his hands and behind TT and KQ (and the unlikely AA/JJ) and he should be c-betting all of them if he catches a whiff that I am competent, but I can't like getting it in here.

I understand betting the turn, but I don't really like it. Villain is so much more likely to pot control with worse value hands than draws/air here. Backdoor spades are never in villain's range enough to change my thought process, so there is no real need to protect against it. In the unlikely event villain has me crushed, he checked to c/r, and we don't really want to oblige that. So either villain has a hand that crushes me, one that is slightly vulnerable and will only call a street, or showdown hands (like a pp or a weak pair/pair + combo) that would bet the river but never call a turn bet.

HOWEVER, I decided on the turn that I would shove most rivers for value, instead of value bet the turn. I felt I was still ahead of villain's value range and (if a blank peeled off) would have a board where villain's worse value hands would be tough to fold. I also figured I would get paid a whole lot more often by going check turn/shove over river bets, since a good villain will never c/c two streets of value with anything I beat (except maybe AT).

I stuttered on the river blank because of the size of villain's bet, and almost aborted the plan and flatted. Then I shipped it.

*** RIVER *** [Jc Tc As 3s] [8d]
udunwantnun: bets 17775
s.l. halper: raises 41690 to 59465 and is all-in
udunwantnun: calls 41690
*** SHOW DOWN ***
s.l. halper: shows [Ac Js] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
udunwantnun: shows [Qd Kd] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
udunwantnun collected 140680 from pot
s.l. halper finished the tournament in 185th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 140680 | Rake 0
Board [Jc Tc As 3s 8d]
Seat 1: Xmachine888 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: topac_isback folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: stockdaddy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Poqaris folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: udunwantnun showed [Qd Kd] and won (140680) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 6: s.l. halper showed [Ac Js] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 7: oddball58 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Bo0sh79 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Ajeff007 (big blind) folded before Flop

In retrospect I think I was a bit ambitious. This flop hits villain's opening range so hard, and I had villain's range properly weighted on the flop when I flatted, and nothing really changed OTT or OTR. I probably shouldn't have shifted my focus from call down to ship. I was also unlucky that the villain played the top of his range deceptively against my underrepped hand, which was the main reason I shifted.

I just wanted to make sure this was close- more of a "meh" spot to shove and not a "fortheloveofGodwhy?" shove.

As always, thanks for the replies.

There is no doubt shoving this river is bad vs a reg. I mean I cant remember the last time a reg has air and taken (the bet flop check turn and bet river) line. I don't hate the turn check because you do give him a chance to value aq or ak here and a few other hands but there are several hands he can have here that beat you. I definitely just call the river..................... that is probably the only thing I do different.