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Strategy: 3-bet or shove?

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  1. bazingaking bazingaking is online now

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    Dec 7th, 2011 (12/7/2011 5:44pm)

    I’ve been wondering whether it is more profitable in some circumstances to 3-bet rather than shove, and I think it depends greatly upon the stakes we are playing at. These are my thoughts, and I'd love to hear yours: Without any information on the villains, hence playing in a sort of vacuum:

    Example 1:

    For tournaments ≤ $10:

    100, 200 and 25 ante, full ring:

    Everyone folds to the button (stack size of 4k), who opens to 550. I am in the small blind with TT (stack size of 4k), and instead of shoving all in, I 3-bet to 1500. My thinking here is that he can 4-bet light, because at lower stakes, people are perhaps more scared by an all in bet, and may not understand pot commitment, so may think they can push me off my hand. Therefore I can try to double up, either if he re-shoves, (lighter than his calling range of a shove), or calls my raise and I will shove all flops.

    Example 2:

    For tournaments ≥ $20:

    100, 200, 25 ante, full ring:

    Everyone folds to the button (stack size of 4k), who opens to 550. I am in the small blind with TT (stack size of 4k), and I shove all in, rather than 3-bet, because he would understand my 3-bet to be strong, and therefore the shove looks weaker, and he will call my shove with a wider range of hands.


    Firstly: I am a learner, and I believe you can only learn by making mistakes, so please correct me if you believe I make a flaw in my thought processes.

    Secondly: If we know that some plays look stronger, for example 3-betting at higher stakes or shoving at lower stakes, can you exploit that? For example could you 3-bet the weaker part of your range at higher buy in tournies, but with hands which you still know are profitable against his late position opening range?

    Thirdly: At which stakes do you think with the stack sizes described, around 9M, are profitable to call a late pos open from the blinds, and then shove on any flop. Are lower stakes more likely to fold to this shove, or would it be higher stakes, or perhaps would higher stakes see through this play. I presumed we needed much more history on the player to know if he can fold easily pre-flop, so I didn’t include it as an option above, and I think this move is riskier.
  2. sirswish6 sirswish6 is offline i mean super business

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    Dec 7th, 2011 (12/7/2011 10:03pm) in reply to bazingaking

    a balanced 3b/call range is what you should focus on. also, dont over-think situations like this just bc of the buyin, instead, focus on the player and his tendencies. a HUD would certainly help you with this, bc there are going to be good players in low buyins and bad players in high buyins.
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  3. luckierno7 luckierno7 is offline

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    Dec 7th, 2011 (12/7/2011 11:55pm) in reply to sirswish6

    +1 2 sirswish
    in your example, 4 instance if villain plays like 32/18 or whatever fishy cally stats he might have, it can be big 109 or big 11, i shove in both cause there s a lot of bad flops for TT
    3bet aggro villains that u dont expect to flat
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  4. bazingaking bazingaking is online now

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    Dec 8th, 2011 (12/8/2011 6:16pm) in reply to luckierno7

    Thanks for the replies, very helpful. I was wondering though, which HUD stats show if a player is good or bad ? - because I thought they only showed if he was passive or aggressive.

    I understand luckierno that to 3-bet aggro villains to allow them to 4-bet when they are bad players is great, but wouldn't good aggro villains be less likely to 4-bet because of my pot commiting raise which looks very strong, and even though they are aggro would be more likely to call a weaker looking shove?

    I just am kinda of thinking that there could be aggro bad players and aggro good players and you might want different tactics against each group, and how to distinguish between them aside from buy in.
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  5. gpzann10 gpzann10 is offline

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    Dec 8th, 2011 (12/8/2011 6:49pm) in reply to bazingaking

    Personally, i don't like the 3 bet with 20bbs here... It just looks so strong if a player has any sort of experience at all he will know that your range is very tight to be three betting here... also a good player would definitely take a note on you doing this and will have an easy read next time, so by always shoving over the top of a raise with 20bbs your range can still be wide, and you can get called off by worse hands.

    You cant just generalize the field based on the buy in, it has to be an individual scenario where you have a read on that certain player for the 3 bet to make sense.... if its a weak player he's gonna flat you so often and pocket 10s don't usually flop too well so its gonna put you in some bad spots post flop.
  6. Staniz Staniz is offline

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 2:45pm) in reply to gpzann10

    i think you are overestimating the average 10$ mtt players skill. if you have no read he is decent, i wouldnt expect him to either 4bet of fold. i dont see the average small buy in mtt player to 4b shove a wide range, he will much more often just flat your raise to see a flop. although i see TT above his calling range i dont like to play it oop in a 3b pot with shallow stacks.
     
  7. luckierno7 luckierno7 is offline

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 11:41pm) in reply to Staniz

    sorry, didnt pay enough attention
    while i still agree with what i stated in the previous post, with 20bbs ( this is where i didnt pay enough attention ) i just shove over any raise
    from the reason u said yourself- 3 bet 20bbs doesnt look like your folding so i doubt you re inducing any light 4 bet
    however if u had 23bbs+ think u should 3 bet , sometimes
    also, you need more than stats to be able to say a villain is aggro good or aggro bad- however aggro people, both good or bad ,4bet a bunch
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  8. darkhawk-200 darkhawk-200 is offline

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    Dec 10th, 2011 (12/10/2011 12:30am) in reply to luckierno7

    shove in both situations, 20bb and a 2.85x raise with antes being the predominant reasons
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  9. bazingaking bazingaking is online now

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    Dec 10th, 2011 (12/10/2011 2:30pm) in reply to darkhawk-200

    @luckierno: Really helpful post, thank you very much.

    Do you think there is anything right about my thought of low stakes players that they are scared of calling all in bets (my shove) without a very good hand, but are more likely to make an all in bet themselves with a wider range regardless of the fact I have pot committed my self, which they make not be able to recognise? Or perhaps as I think you say even low stakes player will be able to recognise pot commitment, and I should only make this move when I am a bit deeper and I don't look too pot committed.

    @Staniz - are we sure even a low staked player would call nearly half of their stack to see a flop? And if they are such flop bandits, won't we win it post-flop when we bet and they fold the majority of the time because they have missed?

    @Darkhawk-200 - thanks
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  10. Staniz Staniz is offline

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    Dec 10th, 2011 (12/10/2011 4:21pm) in reply to bazingaking

     
    Originally Posted by bazingaking View Post

    @luckierno: Really helpful post, thank you very much.

    @Staniz - are we sure even a low staked player would call nearly half of their stack to see a flop? And if they are such flop bandits, won't we win it post-flop when we bet and they fold the majority of the time because they have missed?

    i see people play like this so often!
    if u 3bet pre the pot is on the flop almost as twice as big as your stack, so you need to shove then anyway. if he calls your 3b and fold the flop you win like 6bb more than by making him fold preflop. if he calls the flopshove and you win you get 17,5bb more than by winning preflop (but i doubt you will win this way very often because of overcards on the majority of the flops he wont call often with worse). if he draws out on you, you loose 20bb instead of winning 4bb preflop. so you make either +6bb, +17,5bb or -24bb. you ev depends on how often you get called and win or loose then, i got no time to do the exact math depending on ranges now. but even if this play should be slightly plus ev i dont like it better because its the much higher variance way. i rather like to keep the varinace low. remember you have position on this player in 7 out of 9 hands per orbit, so you can go easily after his chips later when youre ip instead of gambling here if he flops you out or not.
     
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