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Was this a stupid play??

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  1. Go4The$ Go4The$ is offline

    Posts: 9
    Joined: Jul 06

    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 4:32pm)

    I've only played in a few tourneys and this was as far as I've gotten. Started out with around 600 players and there were 12 left when I made this play. I wanted to get to the last table but not with the smallest stack. So, what do you think?

    paradise poker Game #1580067754 - Tournament $40,000 R&A (NLH) - 10,000/20,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/07/09-18:09:29.0 (CST)

    Table "$40,000 R&A 12" (MTT) -- Seat 7 is the button

    Seat 1: vegasbound60 (269,396 in chips)

    Seat 3: goofy4 (216,145 in chips)

    Seat 5: dlangtree1 (409,132 in chips)

    Seat 7: spuddy1943 (111,240 in chips)

    Seat 8: Go4The$ (104,306 in chips)

    Seat 10: cyberguitars (201,722 in chips)

    goofy4 : Ante (1,000)

    dlangtree1: Ante (1,000)

    spuddy1943: Ante (1,000)

    Go4The$ : Ante (1,000)

    cyberguitars: Ante (1,000)

    vegasbound60: Ante (1,000)

    Go4The$ : Post Small Blind (10,000)

    cyberguitars: Post Big Blind (20,000)

    Dealt to Go4The$ [ 2h ]

    Dealt to Go4The$ [ Ac ]

    vegasbound60: Fold

    goofy4 : Fold

    dlangtree1: Fold

    spuddy1943: Fold

    Go4The$ : Raise (93,306)

    cyberguitars: Call (83,306)

    *** FLOP *** : [ 4h 7h Th ]

    *** TURN *** : [ 4h 7h Th ] [ 3d ]

    *** RIVER *** : [ 4h 7h Th 3d ] [ Qc ]

    *** SUMMARY ***

    Pot: 212,612 | Board: [ 4h 7h Th 3d Qc ]

    vegasbound60 lost 1,000 (folded)

    goofy4 lost 1,000 (folded)

    dlangtree1 lost 1,000 (folded)

    spuddy1943 lost 1,000 (folded)

    Go4The$ lost 104,306 (showed hand) [ 2h Ac ] (high card ace)

    cyberguitars bet 104,306, collected 212,612, net +108,306 (showed hand) [ Qd 9s ] (a pair of queens)
  2. namniewd namniewd is offline

    Atlanta, GA
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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 4:34pm) in reply to Go4The$

    not a bad play... standard push with from the sb with an M of around 3.... he makes a terrible call and gets rewarded
  3. Games Geek Games Geek is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 4:42pm) in reply to Go4The$

    I wouldn't say it was a "stupid" play, but it was very dangerous.

    Why? You're teasing a cornered badger. Like you, this guy is short stacked. He's foaming at the mouth for chips and he's ready to jump at <span>any</span> opportunity.

    Normally the push would be "standard" because your fold equity would cover the losses of the times he calls and outdraws you.

    However, the "cornered badger" factor severely reduces your fold equity. This guy is likely calling here with any paint, any suited connectors or single-gappers, any unsuited connectors over 9T, and certainly any pair.

    The problem with making this move with A2 is that the <span>best</span> case scenario you can hope for is a coinflip. Even if he calls you with 89 you're flipping a coin. If he happens to wake up with a pair, or A3-AK then you're in big, big trouble.

    In your spot, I would much rather make that move with a hand like 89s or TJs, where at least you can bet on facing only one overcard or an underpair that you need to outdraw.

    So... in summary, not "stupid" but a very risky play against a very risky stack. I personally would not push with this hand.
  4. Cmoney3 Cmoney3 is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:01pm) in reply to Games Geek

    this is an awful response and wrong...the play you made was "standard" but only to any good tournament player...games geek must not be one....good push donkey call...donkey wins....tough luck
  5. sturgeball sturgeball is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:07pm) in reply to Cmoney3

    lean wid it?
  6. Games Geek Games Geek is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:22pm) in reply to Cmoney3

    Care to actually refute anything I said, or just that it was "awful and wrong?"

    Why was the call a "donkey call?" The guy was ridiculously short stacked and a push from the SB who is also ridiculously short stacked could represent absolutely <span>any two cards</span>, which is exactly why waiting for something at least a little bit fancier than ace-deuce to play into this short stack is probably wise.
  7. Jaxsonguy Jaxsonguy is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:24pm) in reply to Cmoney3

    wasnt even that bad of a call on BB's part.....you are forgetting hte paradise structure. already 36k in the pot. you were obv pushing with any two, and he had the same theory as you......he wanted chips at the final table.
     
  8. pariah pariah is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:35pm) in reply to Games Geek

    "Ridiculously" short-stacked eh... Two people less than him at this one table, nevermind overall, and the call is for half your stack hoping to be a 3:2 dog but possibly worse. Flip the hands, doesn't matter: he pushes with Q9o, a call with A2 is bad. I don't understand why this is so "dangerous" to you. M of 3 with A high I think 90% of us are pushing this. The fact that you're up against a single opponent, in the blind, who isn't priced in to calling... wow how do you fold this? Yes we're only a 55% favorite against a random hand but unlike what you said, best case scenario is them folding which is a reasonable assumption of the result. You have to make a move this hand or the next and ace high is likely better than the 2 he's getting next.
  9. Games Geek Games Geek is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:40pm) in reply to pariah

    Yah, I misread the BB's stack, but regardless that doesn't change the fact that the SB is indeed ridiculously short stacked. He's got, what, less than 3 orbits? Again, his bet represents any two cards, and the call with Q9 is risky but a far cry from a "donkey" call.
  10. jhill3535 jhill3535 is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:43pm) in reply to Jaxsonguy

    The push is okay and the call is okay in my book. The problem is that you let your chips get too low somehow. I don't know if you just took a beat to get you to that level or you have been blinding off for the last 2 revolutions, but you just don't have enough chips have any fold equity and most of the value of this push is fold equity.

    In the end you got the call that you wanted and got your money in ahead with a decent hand for the situation and just got unlucky. Your opponent got his money in against pretty close to the hand he figured you to have, and he had a decent hand for the situation and not enough chips to reasonably fold and the pot was laying alot of dead money.

    In all you both played this hand just about right and only one of you can win.
     
  11. ahh_snap ahh_snap is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:44pm) in reply to Jaxsonguy

    The sb needs to shove about any 2 cards in this spot. I'm shoving at least 80% of the range of hands. Because of this the big blind should realize the optimal shoving range and call with a wider range of hands.. The Q9 may be a little too wide but not much.. If I knew the SB was playing optimal I would be calling from the BB with probably Q 10 or better
  12. pariah pariah is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:47pm) in reply to Games Geek

    Based on pot odds, it's not a bad call.

    Problem is, this isn't a cash game. It's for half his stack... and not only that, getting chopped in half means you're virtually dead in the water at this point. In the first level, if I race for half my stack I'll probably still have 30+ BBs and plenty of breathing room. Here it's do or die and choosing to make a stand here and now with Q9o is far, far more dangerous than pushing A2o.

    Even knowing he's pushing any 2 doesn't change anything. Not to sound too Mike Sexton-ish, but that's the power of betting in no-limit. There are situations every single day where I know what my opponent is doing, know he's pushing with anything, yet I still can't call. The great thing is that next hand it's my turn to shove with 94 knowing my opponent has to fold his dominating J4.

    Basically, I've seen worse but I still don't like the call. The push on OP's part is pretty standard.
  13. Ulbh Ulbh is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:53pm) in reply to Go4The$

    I personally detest A-rag, but when you're down to your last 20 or so hands (fewer than that before your stack is too little to matter, and fewer still if the level ends before you do), I think you go with it. I think Harrington agrees with me, too, but he's at home and I'm not.

    Obviously, you're got equity against one random hand plus fold equity.
  14. EricWells84 EricWells84 is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:53pm) in reply to ahh_snap

    In that spot pushing all in was not really a horible thing to do.
  15. warden warden is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 5:57pm) in reply to EricWells84

    They were all-in preflop.
     2
  16. Go4The$ Go4The$ is offline

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    Jul 10th, 2006 (7/10/2006 6:16pm) in reply to Go4The$

    Hey guys thanks for the feedback. My reasoning was I can't fold and donate the 36K that I really need. If I call there goes another 10% of my small stack and then what happens if he rasises or what happens after the flop. I felt like all my chips were going to end up in the pot anyway so way not push pre flop and maybe steal the blinds. Even if he calls I've got a chance of doubling up.
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