[x]

Sunday 500, Very strange line? Unknown Villain with 100bb v my flopped 2 pair.

Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 11
  1. PaulSmiley PaulSmiley is offline

    Sydney
    Australia

    Posts: 109
    Joined: Jun 10

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 6:15pm)

    This is my very first hand review post and I am very interested in players views. Decent players preferably.
    So i had been mtting as usual but keeping a small eye on the table dynamics since a $500 buy in tourney online is very high for me.
    The villain in the hand I have never seen before and from memory when I look him up on OPR he didn't have many tourneys played.
    So I will take you through my thoughts
    - I had been VERY tight FOR ME on this table(below av cards though). It is hand 74 and his guy hadnt been on the table very long from memory. He has 100bb so I made the assumption he had been active on other other tables and that I had not seen him before so he could easily be a random recreational agro player.
    I make a pretty standard opening for me with suited connectors mid early. When the villain defends its BB i can not give it too much respect obviously.
    So I BINK the flop. 2 pair with the ace. I make a SMALL c bet to induce a check re raise, so please dont hound me on my bet sizing. A potential flush comes on the turn. Should I be worried? well make a standard blockige/info bet on turn(still thinking I dont think I can fold to a check reshove on turn since i assuming its a donk and would love any ace or semi bluffs such as straight draws with a spade). I am also putting its range as super wide defending. Ok so river comes. He checks? Yes I was auto thinking ultra greedy to value bet but he hasnt shown any strength? I want value from any ace... OBV im 50 50 but I Value. Then BAM he shoves. WTF WTF.... So yeah it seems HE CANT be bluffing. BUT if this agro villain has at least level 3 thinking, could he be thinking its a good spot to REP some BS

    Guys can you take into consideration pot odds etc and that there is fold equity obv from my range. For the record if I am folding 2 pair here, am I folding top set? Or does this have more value calling.. Much appreciate the feedback guys!!

    *********** # 74 **************
    pokerstars Hand #81781213028: Tournament #576020018, $500+$30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2012/06/10 19:15:50 BRT [2012/06/10 18:15:50 ET]
    Table '576020018 39' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: 23noraB (7918 in chips)
    Seat 2: jusc (7782 in chips)
    Seat 3: PaulSmiley (11564 in chips)
    Seat 4: WhEADa (8810 in chips)
    Seat 5: anguila (33046 in chips)
    Seat 6: trindade69 (14850 in chips)
    Seat 7: MeatPounder (9242 in chips)
    Seat 8: RZA4444 (12345 in chips)
    Seat 9: Tuczas (32783 in chips)
    23noraB: posts the ante 30
    jusc: posts the ante 30
    PaulSmiley: posts the ante 30
    WhEADa: posts the ante 30
    anguila: posts the ante 30
    trindade69: posts the ante 30
    MeatPounder: posts the ante 30
    RZA4444: posts the ante 30
    Tuczas: posts the ante 30
    RZA4444: posts small blind 150
    Tuczas: posts big blind 300
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to PaulSmiley [6h 7h]
    23noraB: folds
    jusc: folds
    PaulSmiley: raises 345 to 645
    WhEADa: folds
    anguila: folds
    trindade69: folds
    MeatPounder: folds
    RZA4444: folds
    Tuczas: calls 345
    *** FLOP *** [6s 7c As]
    Tuczas: checks
    PaulSmiley: bets 598
    Tuczas: calls 598
    *** TURN *** [6s 7c As] [5s]
    Tuczas: checks
    PaulSmiley: bets 1017
    Tuczas: calls 1017
    *** RIVER *** [6s 7c As 5s] [2h]
    Tuczas: checks
    PaulSmiley: bets 1729
    Tuczas: raises 28764 to 30493 and is all-in
    PaulSmiley: folds
    Uncalled bet (28764) returned to Tuczas
    PaulSmiley said, "omg, anyone on the table call 67"
    Tuczas collected 8398 from pot
    Tuczas: doesn't show hand
    PaulSmiley said, "?"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 8398 | Rake 0
    Board [6s 7c As 5s 2h]
    Seat 1: 23noraB folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: jusc folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: PaulSmiley folded on the River
    Seat 4: WhEADa folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: anguila folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: trindade69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: MeatPounder (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: RZA4444 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: Tuczas (big blind) collected (8398)
     
  2. NarcoCop NarcoCop is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

    Posts: 652
    Joined: Apr 09

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 6:51pm) in reply to PaulSmiley

    First off , the turn card is very bad for you in every possible way, Flushes get there , straights get there. I like checking back the river. Don't think he's calling you with much worse after you three barrell here. Maybe AJ or AT but thats about it IMO. OBV we don't have much information on the Villian other than he's new to the table and your assuming he's aggro because of his stack. I fold and move on as played. Now that i look at it closer, checking back turn for pot control is a better idea. That way u can call a bet on most rivers.
    Edited By: NarcoCop Jun 12th, 2012 at 06:51 PM
     
  3. bazingaking bazingaking is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 340
    Joined: Apr 11

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 6:58pm) in reply to NarcoCop

    Yeah I completely agree with above that you should just check back on the river. Since the villain has check-called twice it seems that he is on a draw, and by the turn/river all of the draws have got there. When you bet the river, you will only get called by AJ, AT, A9 etc. rarely, but all the other times you will get called by better two-pair hands and raised by straights/flushes/sets.

    When he re-raises you on the river, I would definitely fold. No need to tell the table though, just move on and leave the hand behind IMO.
  4. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

    United States

    Posts: 2,687
    Joined: Feb 06

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 7:24pm) in reply to bazingaking

    Pretty much agree with NacroCop. I prefer checking back river. If villain is any good, he shouldn't be check/calling river anyway with A9/AT/AJ given your line.

    For what it's worth, I prefer bet/fold turn and check back river to check back turn and call most rivers. The reason is you can control the bet sizing on the turn and continue to get value from worse hands. Checking back turn and calling river allows villain to dictate the bet sizing and in most cases ends with you committing more chips. In some cases, checking back turn and bluff catching river is better, but in this specific hand, most river bets from the villain will be for value (including thin value that you are ahead of sometimes) and will be sized larger than your turn c-bet. Basically, betting turn gets more value from worse hands and costs less when villain is ahead.

    With respect to calling the shove, there's not much you beat. Villains flat out of the big blind gives him a lot of hands that beat you (all Ax 2 pair combos, straights, flushes and sets). I suppose villain could turn KsYx into a bluff, but there's not many KsYx hands that check/call flop. So the most likely bluff scenario seems to be turning Ax into a bluff. It's a plausible line and really difficult for anyone to call with something like TPTK. It actually could be a really good line to take with AxKs.

    The problem is that readless and with no history, attempting to bluff catch here is just hoping villain is a high level thinking player and is attempting to make a move. There's ~6400 in the pot when villain shoves and you have about 7500 behind. You're risking 7500 to win about 15,700. Villain would need to be bluffing about 1/3 of the time for a call to be ok here. I definitely think villain could have a bluff range, but I wouldn't weight it at more than 10-20% without reads. As such, I can't imagine calling.
    Edited By: tyson219 Jun 12th, 2012 at 07:33 PM
      1
  5. wantCLEANmoney wantCLEANmoney is offline

    Scranton, PA
    United States

    Posts: 117
    Joined: Mar 09

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 9:31pm) in reply to tyson219

    I agree with Tyson and jesus christ Tyson you should be charging for this. I didnt think ppl posted reply's like this anymore. Ppl reading this should understand all of tysons reasoning b/c it will help your game exponentially. Please tho, I suggest you dont try to understand the "why" behind the optimal line here and keep hitting the deposit button. Thanks.
     
  6. PaulSmiley PaulSmiley is offline

    Sydney
    Australia

    Posts: 109
    Joined: Jun 10

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 10:02pm) in reply to wantCLEANmoney

    Thanks to all of the above. Esp tyson for a in depth analysis. And to wantcleanmoney, FYI I actually play fulltime mate. So I do not deposit ever. Try and be less arrogant one time hey! Please let me know what your p stars screen name is if you really want to impress me. You might try and realise I was posting this for verification on what my thoughts were. I knew I made a mistake by betting the river(unless I knew the player well).

    Thanks again for the replies!
     
    Thread Starter
  7. collincapone collincapone is offline

    Edmonton
    Canada

    Posts: 56
    Joined: Feb 11

    Jun 12th, 2012 (6/12/2012 10:13pm) in reply to PaulSmiley

    "omg anyone on the table call 67?" That is chat you'd see more in a $5 mtt vs a $500! Why give away your hand?
     
  8. pokerscrub1 pokerscrub1 is offline

    Darlington, SC
    United States

    Posts: 630
    Joined: Feb 10

    Jun 13th, 2012 (6/13/2012 12:44am) in reply to PaulSmiley

     
    Originally Posted by PaulSmiley View Post

    Thanks to all of the above. Esp tyson for a in depth analysis. And to wantcleanmoney, FYI I actually play fulltime mate. So I do not deposit ever. Try and be less arrogant one time hey! Please let me know what your p stars screen name is if you really want to impress me. You might try and realise I was posting this for verification on what my thoughts were. I knew I made a mistake by betting the river(unless I knew the player well).

    Thanks again for the replies!

    I don't think what he said was meant to be a shot at you. I think you read what he posted wrong. Pretty sure he just meant that he hopes random rec players don't learn in depth strategy like that or the games will be more difficult. That's how I read it at least.
     
  9. wantCLEANmoney wantCLEANmoney is offline

    Scranton, PA
    United States

    Posts: 117
    Joined: Mar 09

    Jun 13th, 2012 (6/13/2012 7:10am) in reply to pokerscrub1

     
    Originally Posted by pokerscrub1 View Post

    I don't think what he said was meant to be a shot at you. I think you read what he posted wrong. Pretty sure he just meant that he hopes random rec players don't learn in depth strategy like that or the games will be more difficult. That's how I read it at least.

    +1
     
  10. BreakEvenFish BreakEvenFish is offline

    Posts: 95
    Joined: Feb 11

    Jun 13th, 2012 (6/13/2012 1:45pm) in reply to pokerscrub1

     
    Originally Posted by pokerscrub1 View Post

    I don't think what he said was meant to be a shot at you. I think you read what he posted wrong. Pretty sure he just meant that he hopes random rec players don't learn in depth strategy like that or the games will be more difficult. That's how I read it at least.

    Between OP misreading that reply and writing "omg anyone call 67" in chat I don't know what to lol at first.
  11. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,728
    Joined: Mar 10

    Jun 13th, 2012 (6/13/2012 7:19pm) in reply to BreakEvenFish

    I like checking the turn because that way you're inducing potential bluffs on the river and if he checks once you've checked turn you're probably good. I can't imagine him trying to check raise you once you shutdown on the turn and i don't mind calling his raise on the river in the scenario i describe. A checkraise on river after checking through the turn would be an even stranger line with only 74 hands.

    Also a point i wanted to mention to op. I do not think you can assume he is aggro villain just because he stacked up. You should just treat him like as anonymous until you have reads or stats.
  12. PaulSmiley PaulSmiley is offline

    Sydney
    Australia

    Posts: 109
    Joined: Jun 10

    Jun 19th, 2012 (6/19/2012 5:28am) in reply to djdoodoo

    It was a clear shot at me in some way. However I dont know the story is in regards to avoiding helping out random rec players. I am obviously not one, if I bother writing these posts? and randoms dont use forums anyway? sorry if I am new to using forums...
    Are you not supposed to write in depth analysis for public eye? Just wondering. Meant to inbox this stuff..
     
    Thread Starter
  13. djdoodoo djdoodoo is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,728
    Joined: Mar 10

    Jun 19th, 2012 (6/19/2012 6:29am) in reply to PaulSmiley

     
    Originally Posted by PaulSmiley View Post

    It was a clear shot at me in some way. However I dont know the story is in regards to avoiding helping out random rec players. I am obviously not one, if I bother writing these posts? and randoms dont use forums anyway? sorry if I am new to using forums...
    Are you not supposed to write in depth analysis for public eye? Just wondering. Meant to inbox this stuff..

    Its quite difficult to understand your posts.
  14. bazingaking bazingaking is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 340
    Joined: Apr 11

    Jun 19th, 2012 (6/19/2012 1:08pm) in reply to djdoodoo

     
    Originally Posted by djdoodoo View Post

    Its impossible to understand your posts.

    ^
  15. alun alun is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,060
    Joined: Aug 11

    Jun 19th, 2012 (6/19/2012 5:06pm) in reply to BreakEvenFish

     
    Originally Posted by BreakEvenFish View Post

    Between OP misreading that reply and writing "omg anyone call 67" in chat I don't know what to lol at first.

    i thought he read it right he was basically saying at the end of his reply to not understand and keep depositing, basically telling him to keep on being a fish, the guys obv not a fish so i can understand him reacting the way he did.
  16. DynamicPro DynamicPro is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 5
    Joined: Jun 12

    Jun 19th, 2012 (6/19/2012 5:47pm) in reply to alun

    Check raise all in on the river is typical donk behaviour, with huge hand. It's a $500 tourney but you get awful players at all levels. FWIW I bet the flop, then when the flush and straight get there on the turn, check call, and depending on the size of the river bet check fold or check call. If you can keep the pot small enough you can catch bluffs against worse hands, or limit damage against better hands. Needless to say once the turn arrives I am very worried. Good fold on the river, but I think it highly likely you were crushed.

    Good post, by the way.

    I forgot you had position on him, and bet the turn. If you simply check behind him on the turn, the pot will be small enough so you can check call on the river. If you check behind on the turn and he has a monster he has to do his own betting on the river, but the pot will be small enough he will have to make it only a reasonable value bet, so you can afford to call and pay him off or catch a bluff if you wish, or fold if you wish.

    Hey Dan, Can you help me fix my change log for Lock/revolution? MY SN should read wAckAflopA not (wAckAflopA)

    I tried to do it myself but had no luck :p I need () removed for tracking. Please and thankyou, and sorry for posting this in here, I just didn't want to make a brand new thread, and figured it relates to the change log issues.

    thx.
    Edited By: RedIceRap Jun 19th, 2012 at 10:56 PM
Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 11