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Super sick spot @ FT of UB $300 100k

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  1. negativeROI negativeROI is offline

    Columbus, OH
    United States

    Posts: 1,125
    Joined: Feb 08

    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 5:30am)

    Did not sit with villain until the final table, but from what I saw and heard he was absolutely horrid and super duper aggressive. I ran out of timebank here so I really didnt have any time to think whatsoever, given that he was super insane is it possible that is he borderline retarded? I leaned very much towards calling here given the fact that I think my hand is disguised here (especially vs non-thinking player). Is this a snap call? I was torn mainly because he was UTG and I think this is a tougher spot than it appears on the surface. Is it absolutely awful to call on the flop and then fold the turn?

    Stage #1483063347 Tourney ID 4077292 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $5000 - 2009-02-21 23:11:12 (ET)
    Table: 31 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
    Seat 1 - MIKE3097 ($43701.24 in chips)
    Seat 2 - STALLION_69_ ($203313.51 in chips)
    Seat 3 - ALLINGIRL86 ($49925.32 in chips)
    Seat 4 - SANDLER1860 ($291500 in chips)
    Seat 6 - NEGATIVEROI ($231306 in chips)
    Seat 7 - WSU79 ($235857.74 in chips)
    Seat 8 - NORCAL83 ($29304.50 in chips)
    Seat 9 - MUCKTHENUTS ($200091.69 in chips)
    MIKE3097 - Ante $500
    STALLION_69_ - Ante $500
    ALLINGIRL86 - Ante $500
    SANDLER1860 - Ante $500
    NEGATIVEROI - Ante $500
    WSU79 - Ante $500
    NORCAL83 - Ante $500
    MUCKTHENUTS - Ante $500
    SANDLER1860 - Posts small blind $2500
    NEGATIVEROI - Posts big blind $5000
    *** POCKET CARDS ***
    Dealt to NEGATIVEROI [Jd Js]
    WSU79 - Raises $21500 to $21500
    NORCAL83 - Folds
    MUCKTHENUTS - Folds
    MIKE3097 - Folds
    STALLION_69_ - Folds
    ALLINGIRL86 - Folds
    SANDLER1860 - Folds
    NEGATIVEROI - Calls $16500
    *** FLOP *** [3h 10h 7d]
    NEGATIVEROI - Checks
    WSU79 - Bets $49500
    NEGATIVEROI - Calls $49500
    *** TURN *** [3h 10h 7d] [3s]
    NEGATIVEROI - Checks
    WSU79 - All-In $164357.74
    NEGATIVEROI - ????????
     1
  2. Hub Dub 04 Hub Dub 04 is offline

    Posts: 485
    Joined: Nov 06

    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 5:39am) in reply to negativeROI

    With information given I pile all fucking day long there.
  3. dealace1 dealace1 is offline @ UFC 115 via UB

    Mississauga
    Canada

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    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 7:08am) in reply to negativeROI

    Given info isn't this a snap shove pre and/or on flop? as played call. idk, interesting hand.
  4. JGB146 JGB146 is offline

    United States

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    Joined: Jan 06

    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 7:58am) in reply to negativeROI

    Given the aggro-donk read, calling the flop and folding a blank turn is pretty bad. Unless you have a reason to think getting to the turn gives you more information, I think you're better off shoving the flop, where we're very likely to be ahead. That said, let's go back through the hand, street by street.

    First off, preflop: Holding JJ in position against an aggro-bad player with 40bb stacks, it's close whether or not we want to call 10% preflop. I'm never folding to this guy, but sometimes I will reraise. The thing is, in order to reraise, we need to have some idea how we will respond to a 4-bet. If a 4-bet is always going to be QQ+/AQ+, then a 3-bet is fine, as it gets us a lot of information about exactly where we're at, so we can comfortably fold to a 4-bet and comfortably play postflop. Similarly, if he's 4-betting a wide range like any pair and A9s+/ATo+, then we can 3-bet and comfortably get it in when he shoves. Now then, with all of that said, your description tells me that we don't know which range to allow for this guy. Given that, we may be best off calling and picking up the extra chips he will undoubtedly commit when we hit a good flop. We definitely can't call looking to set mine.

    When the flop comes, we should be thrilled. There are plenty of mid-pairs that an aggro-donk is going to like on this board. Also, hands like ATs are delighted to give us chips, and even some AJ+ types of hands will pay us off based on having outs to overcard hands. Given the size of the pot, our stack, and the fact that our hand is still vulnerable to any A/K/Q, I prefer to ship it on this great a flop, UNLESS you're willing to consider yourself committed should an overcard fall on the turn. That is, you figure that he has AK here often enough that a Q isn't dangerous and AQ often enough that a K isn't dangerous.

    Considering yourself committed and just calling will net the most chips here, but it will also result in you busting more often. I usually preach picking up pots as more important to final table play than maximizing your wins in each pot. I think that applies here as well; we're just not strong enough against his range (which probably includes a number of flush draws) to want to give him another card. So I shove the flop.

    On the turn, we must call. The only card in the deck better for us than a 3 is a J. Further, we have under-represented our hand on every street, meaning that his range includes a lot of air, and a lot of pairs that we kill. In Theory-of-Poker terms, we have induced a bluff; we must call. That's doubly true against an aggro-bad opponent.

    Cheers,

    - Jeffrey "JGB146" Blake, Grinderschool.com Admin
  5. qjuice14 qjuice14 is offline

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    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 8:28am) in reply to JGB146

     
    Originally Posted by JGB146 View Post

    If a 4-bet is always going to be QQ+/AQ+, then a 3-bet is fine, as it gets us a lot of information about exactly where we're at, so we can comfortably fold to a 4-bet and comfortably play postflop.

    NO, not this.

     
    Originally Posted by JGB146 View Post

    Considering yourself committed and just calling will net the most chips here

    I think you have to very sure about your opponent and his capabilities to make this statement. I think against most unknowns, this is not true.
     
  6. qjuice14 qjuice14 is offline

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    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 8:36am) in reply to negativeROI

     
    Originally Posted by negativeROI View Post

    Is it absolutely awful to call on the flop and then fold the turn?

    Yes.

    I like your line if you have position on your opponent because it will be much easier for you to control the pot. However, you are playing a vulnerable hand out position against an aggressive opponent without the lead - this can make things very difficult.

    The only reason that this is a "super sick spot" as you claim is because you allow it to be. You addmittedly have little respect for your opponent and think he is super aggro and capable of spewing, yet you are subjecting yourself to the highest variance most difficult line to play against him - all without a clear plan.
     
  7. negativeROI negativeROI is offline

    Columbus, OH
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    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 12:23pm) in reply to negativeROI

    bump.

    qjuice I agree here pretty much with what your saying. I think given a timebank or more than like 10sec of thinking (which is about what I had), I think I would have probably ended up calling. I folded. However, the long reply doesn't make much sense to me and im not in position along with a lot of other things didn't really make sense, whoever it is that said that. The reason I think this is a call is because non-thinking villian probably putting me on a T, and probably pushes it with 99/AT/most big draws since my hand is disguised. At the same time though, the reason I say this is a sick spot is, with the amount of money at stake for a non-thinking idiot player, is he really gonna push it with anything worse than AT here on the flop? He makes a pot raise UTG and is def repping a huge hand, I'm just not sure how maniac he is because like I said I didn't sit with him til the final table. Would like some more opinions.
     1
    Thread Starter
  8. ABorges ABorges is offline

    Sines
    Portugal

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    Feb 22nd, 2009 (2/22/2009 1:03pm) in reply to negativeROI

    If he's such a big spewtard his range is much wider than QQ+. He can end up with stuff like 99/88 and AK a LOT, not to mention random Ts, flush draws and complete bluffs. I think your range is owning him pretty hard. I think it's a very easy stack off, especially with the line taken, and that's from a guy who usually ends up folding in spots like this. So yeah, I snap call.
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