When I started playing tournaments in the early ‘80s, it was a much different scene than it is now. Most host casinos took good care of the players as far as food comps and cheap room rates, and the juice was far less. I remember a tournament they had at the Plaza in the early ‘80s. The juice was $500+15. The dealers were complaining that they weren’t making enough, so the next year they charged an extra $5, which would go directly to the dealers. Players were happy with this. Management found out that players were willing to pay an extra $5, so the year after they charged the extra $5, but didn’t give it to the dealers. I was going through some old copies of Poker Player from the ‘80s. Here’s what I found:

The first Grand Prix at the Golden Nugget in 1985:

500+25

1000+25

5000+50

10000+50

The Diamond Jim Brady at the Bike in L.A. in 1985 had similar juice, and also offered several bonuses for early bird registration, jackpots, all around prizes and a 20k for winning two in a row.

In 1986 at Vegas World the max juice was still $50, and they gave away 10 Yugos.

At the WSOP in 1988, they went to $35 on the 1k events, and $50 on the 1500’s, but they still charged no juice on the Big One.

In 1990 at the Superstars of Poker in Tahoe, the juice on the 500 events snuck up to $30, but the highest was still $50, and the winner of the $1000 main event got a sports car.

At all these events, players were taken care of in the food and lodging areas, and were generally treated like the were appreciated.

Fast forward to the present day:

Standard juice at the Bellagio events has been:

1500+70

2000+80

2500+100

5000+150

10000+200

25000+500

On top of that, 3% is taken out of the prize pool for tips, food comps aren’t given unless you make it to the dinner break, and room rates are through the roof. The highest juice is taken on events that are televised, where we, the unpaid actors, already provide all the entertainment and put up all the prize money. Somebody is making money from the TV coverage, but little of it comes back to the players. Why any player should have to pay juice on a televised event is beyond me, yet the Bellagio decided that $300 wasn’t enough on the 25k WPT Championship, so they raised it to $500 last year. And we had to play 10-handed for two days!

I don’t blame the casinos for taking what the market will bear. Well, ctually I do. It’s become almost impossible for entry-level players to get a foothold, much less work their way up the ladder. Juice on the lower buy-in events can be as much as 25%. Add in travel expenses to the never-ending increases in juice and the tournament professional is soon to become an endangered species. The biggest names with huge bankrolls or sponsorship deals will survive, but run-of-the-mill touring pro will not make it unless he gets very lucky in a few big events.

It would seem that there is enough TV and sponsorship money to subsidize some of the burden that players face, thereby ensuring the growth of the sport. I had the idea years ago to put company logos on the tables and use the income to offset the juice. Sure enough, at the 2004 WSOP the Viagara logo was on the table, with no accompanying reduction in the rake. The

short-sightedness and greed of the casinos will serve only to kill the golden goose. TV ratings are already down, and I predict tournament entries will follow.

Just when I thought we’d been pushed as far as possible, I saw the schedule for the October Bellagio tournament:

1500+90

2000+100

2500+120

5000+180

10000+300

They are just going to keep pushing until players take a stand. Hopefully the WPA will be able to help players in these areas. A strong and unified player’s association and sanctioning body is needed more than ever. In the meantime, competition for players and the profits they provide must eventually lead to some places offering players a better deal. In a competitive market, the answer is simple—vote with your feet.

i don't think there's anything wrong with casinos charging more for juice. the big events cost a lot for them to run over multiple days and the increasing number of players = more money to dealers so they HAVE to raise the price a bit.

what i don't agree with is what you mentioned late in your post, which was that the smaller buyin events are completely out of control as far as juice goes. if they're going to charge $500 for the $25k, they should NOT be charging $50 for a $500 tournament.

"in the poker game of life; women are the rake man, the f'in rake."

The bellagio has a better structure then most casinos, and since the tournaments run longer, it makes business sense to charge more. The bellagio is all business, thats why they only spread NL tourneys.

^^my point exactly.

but the fucking grand in tunica has no business charging 10% juice on a $500 tournament.

When people refuse to pay it, the juice will come down. With the bulk of people winning their seats (especially to the big televised events) online, people dont even NOTICE the juice, because they are not putting up the money directly. Even if all the people that buy directly in, refused to play when the juice is that high, they probably STILL wouldnt change it because its such a low percentage. Lower juice also means the online sites could give out more seats, so its really in everyone's best interest...I just dont really know if it will change..you would need massive, MASSIVE "strikes" in order to for juice to be lowered...many of the pros cant afford to lose their sponsorships by refusing to play...just my thoughts...if there was some sort of union or some other way to solve this problem...sign me up!

Why is tournament style poker even given by casinos? Don't they lose in the long run (when you compare what they could make in the space they use for the tournament)? It's not as if some other entity couldn't host tournament poker.

Jackaaron,

Casinos host poker tourneys because they know that it attracts people who will also play their -EV tables games and because they get a crapload of free publicity.

They're a logical choice because thay have the space and the dealers on staff.
They're also used to handling large sums of money and have mega security.

Great post Blair!

I think the casinos are trying to milk this “fad” as much as possible.

And I think you are right that they are being very short sighted about it. I think they could prolong this fad by giving up just a few $$ back to the players….or better training dealers…..floor people….etc.

BUT - I also think that the casinos are having a hard time dealing with the boom. If this fad had a more gradual ramp up it might be easier.

I think people also underestimate the costs to take this on…I can’t imagine the logistical cost for the WSOP ME…..huge….consultants, tournament directors, technology, hiring, training, space, tables, chips, cards, etc…and try to guess how many players to be ready for…..crazy if you think about it.

I think the casinos are also having a hard time figuring out how long of a period of time they can spread their costs over……how long will the boom last? (it won’t last forever)

All it would take is the passing of a law to make online sites “more” or “clearly” illegal..(and some enforcement)……..that would crush the poker boom for the cardrooms fast! Imagine how large the WSOP ME would be with NO online poker rooms……1/2….1/3 the size…easily.

With all that volatility and potential risk……I’d probably side with the card rooms – milk it for 2006. Reevaluate for 2007…..

AND to add further to my off the cuff thoughts….it might be more valuable to spend money on the “experience” then to reduce the juice….why? (like Blair said about dinner comps etc.)

Because most tournament poker players are amateurs….tourists….how do you get tourists to return…make sure they had a good time even if they loose

Pretty card room with pretty waitresses and high juice VS a dive with BYOB and low juice…where do most want to play…..the pretty card room with the pretty waitress for me….I play for fun & profit not a living & profit…..as do 90% of all the players that will be at the WSOP ME.

That’s my ramble…..

ding ding ding ...correct. well said. the idea that a business is going to soak up all the money is rational, but irrational in the long term. casinos have to look out for poker as a form of investment. the longevity of this game is important to a lot of people and to poker in general. Casinos should be able to look at it in that longterm POV, seeing that charging players excessive fees and then not taking care of them, when it barely costs the hotel to give decent food vouchers and cheap room rates when the hotels aren't near capacity, is just not a good way to take care of a long term investment. casino's should be satisfied with take 5%, they only have a 2 or 3% edge in blackjack.

casinos, please take care of poker and the poker players will continue to come back.

Golf also charges spectators fees, and gets huge corporate sponsorship, even just from companys buying a tent for seating and food.

also, everyone acts like poker is a burden on the casino. that's far from the truth. yes, you're 100% right they make more from the craps tables. but do you REALLY think bringing 10,000 people to your casino for the WSOP is a bad move? of those 10,000 people, probably 9,000 are degenerate gamblers. if you strategically locate your poker room so that you have to walk by the tables then they're more likely to get you to gamble there too.

Dunce,

I wil not argue with your #'s here (although I think some are off a bit), but to say that the space will go unused when a tournament is not running is just a silly comment!!

These tournaments usually run in the large rooms used for conferences, seminars etc. These rooms are rented out on a regular basis to corporate america, so please don't tell me the casino gets nothing from this space when a tourney is not running!!

Yogi

And then top finishers are still expected to tip the dealers. Would it really be that hard to get the networks to at least cover the vig (meaning rake and amount withheld) in exchange for the use of unpaid talent?

In televised tournaments, if 100% of the players' entry fee went to the prizepool and the networks covered all of the expenses, TV would still be getting an amazing deal from a production standpoint. Can you think of any other reality show or sport where the talent is not paid AND they have to completely fund the prizepool AND they have to pay additional fees to participate?

This is why when ppl complain about online poker you need to tell them to shove it! Because for the rake and price that you are getting is amazing compared to a casino. You can also win a lot more money then at a casino. Also most likely your putting up the half the buy in to get it. Casinos are fun and cool but they are a monsterous rip off!