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For those about to rock...or, eh, play...

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  1. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

    Posts: 6,840
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 9:16am)

    I was just wondering, from the good players (I will define good players for the purposes of this question as players who are either ranked or have made more than 3 final tables in the last 2 weeks), I cant imagine that you guys somehow avoid all the "bad beats" that the rest of us complain about. I know you dont avoid them because you occasionally post about them, however you are still consistent winners. Now, I know a lot of this has to do with playing 5+ tourneys a day. but I think there is something more. I figure it is one of 3 things, 1st, you have so many chips that when you call the all-ins of the other players, it leaves you enough chips to play with; 2nd, you fold to any all ins unless you have AA or KK; 3rd, you never call all in's before the river. I suppose that if you played 5 tourneys a day*5 days a week (25 Tourneys) times 4 weeks....youre getting to the final table in 4 or 5 of them is the same as me getting to the final table once every 2 or 3 months because thats how long it takes me to play 100 tourneys. But is there anything else you do to avoid bad beats? The other thing is that I suppose bad beats mean that you have WAY the best of the hand and lose to sheer luck, which means youd WANT to be in those situations. But I guess my question is, sometimes you are going to lose those situations, how do you position yourself so that when you DO lose, youre not out? Thanks!
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  2. jeffo jeffo is offline

    Posts: 63
    Joined: Mar 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 9:29am) in reply to supermoves

    I am by no means a pro, but i've made a few final tables, and from my experience consistant solid play ensures you have the chips to cover some bad beats, but sometimes, theres nothing you can do. 2nd hand of a 40+4 on UB, i get KK, guy in first position raises, doubles the blind, then guy before me bets pot, I just smooth call this one, maybe a bad play, thats questionable, then it comes around to first position guy and he goes all in, comes around to reraiser, and he goes all in. I opt to fold the hand, because A) either could easily have AA, looked like it to me, and B) It was too early, for me, to make that kinda move.

    So sure enough, first guy flips over, 88, second guy has JJ... and not so oddly, they make a set, and I woulda been gone. That may be playing a bit too safe, im not sure, but at least i survived passed the second hand.

    I finished 3rd in one last week where i held AA, and lost to A6. I raise it up, get reraised, I come over the top big, he calls. Flop is 678, he comes out betting, i raise it up big again, he calls, leaving him 10k in chips, before the hand he had around 45 or so, so of course he's all in on turn anyway. Turn comes 6, and thats all she wrote. His response, dont slow play, so yes theres sometimes nothing you can do.

    Sorry to rant about a couple of the bad beats, just illustrating sometimes not much you can do, thats pokers. Just hope to get a decent size stack to survive a couple, and keep playing solid.

    That being said, im sure we've all being low stack at one point or another and sucked out, but thats another story :)

    Cheers,
  3. Ollie79 Ollie79 is offline

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    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 10:08am) in reply to supermoves

    This is something I feel I can answer as I have changed my playing style over the past few weeks and a direct result is that I seem to have experienced far fewer bad beats, or more specifically far fewer FATAL bad beats.

    One of the keys I have found which sounds simple is to simply not put all your chips in the middle anywhere near as often. It was very hard at first but I found that in the past I would overbet the pot to try and push out flush and straight draws when I had a set, two pairs, top pair top kicker etc yet people on draws would still call down and would often hit. Now, when there is straight and flush draw potential I will not risk my stack trying to push people off the pot and will bet more cautiously and just accept that sometimes the flush will come and will then release my hand. Similiarly, when others push all in in front of me I am far less inclined to call unless I am sure I have the nuts or at least an absolute monster.

    I also found changing focus to think of the tournament as a whole rather than of any one particular hand. This has meant me laying down on a number of occassions when I am pretty sure I have the best of it but am not willing to risk my entire tournament on that one hand. A great man once said, "The beauty of NL tournaments is that you can lay down the best hand 20 times and still win the tournament."

    What was also mentioned earlier about picking on shorter stacks is to a degree true also. Whilst I will not avoid stacks that can cripple / eliminate me entirely, I will sure as hell play a lot more cautiously against them than against those that will not really harm me.

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers
  4. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

    Posts: 6,840
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    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 10:40am) in reply to Ollie79

    I really appreciate your response, but it sounds like what you are saying is, if you have trips or two pair etc, and there is a flush or straight draw on the board, dont bet the pot. Is this good poker. Maybe this is where I am going wrong, are there some pretty solid rules of poker that have to be broken in order to survive tourneys? Also, what about the "good player cannot adjust to play against bad players" theory? How would a good player ajust to play agaist people who would call with draws regardless of pot odds? Thanks again!
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  5. Ollie79 Ollie79 is offline

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    United Kingdom

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    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 11:13am) in reply to supermoves

    This is kind of what I'm saying but what I didn't make clear is that everything is situational. For example, if I hold q,q and flop top set but the flop is 10,j,q with 2 hearts it is essential here not to overpush as there are any number of ways you could be drawn out on or even losing here. What probably wasn't clear from my first e-mail is that I would bet sufficiently here to not allow the other player the correct odds to call, but should he move all-in or put forward a significant reraise I would probably lay down here as he has commited to chase his draw to the river or is already ahead.

    Other important factors to consider are relative stack sizes and whether or not you have developed a strong read on the player. For example in the above situation I would call without hesitation if I had a 20k stack and my opponent had 6k, and I would fold without hesitation if I had 15k and my opponent 30k, even if I had a strong read that he was chasing a draw and was not playing a made hand. This is simply because there are a number of ways for him to hit his hand. Yes it would be considered a bad beat but you would also be needlessly out of the tournament.

    Generally, I am just far more cautious now of risking my tournament life with anything less than the stone cold nuts and will let pots go when there is the possibility that you can be out of the tournament. I know this is a style that may be considered overly cautious and not fundamentally sound but it has helped me avoid bad beats considerably. I now prefer to play lots of small pots and build a big stack gradually rather than by doubling and tripling as i feel there is more benefit in it for me to play small pots post flop, where I feel that my strength lies, than pushing in and hoping my hand holds up.

    This is just my advice on how I have managed to minimise the beats but as we all know there are infinite ways to play successfully and I'm sure this style is not the way for everyone - just works for me.

    Cheers!
  6. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

    Posts: 6,840
    Joined: Feb 05

    Mar 30th, 2005 (3/30/2005 11:25am) in reply to Ollie79

    Thanks :-)
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