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Thoughts

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  1. Alex Fowler Alex Fowler is offline

    Winton
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 81
    Joined: Oct 08

    Nov 19th, 2009 (11/19/2009 7:39pm)

    Deep in a $2 3500 player tourney. 90 players left.

    I made a misread in this instance, but is this a reasonable move to make in this situation, I've been fairly tight recently, with the last 2 hands ive played having been 3 bet shoved on and forced to fold.

    Obviously from the cut off he can have a very wide range, and this min raise stank of weakness, and with a 15 BB stack, with the other player also playing for the majority of his stack I felt I could a good amount of the time push him off his hand, be flipping or slightly behind.

    pokerstars Game #35588368775: Tournament #213406622, $2.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVI (2500/5000) - 2009/11/20 1:27:43 WET [2009/11/19 20:27:43 ET]
    Table '213406622 49' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 1: sau6on (5667 in chips)
    Seat 2: MrDorianGray (61736 in chips)
    Seat 3: Krlos47 (85290 in chips)
    Seat 4: nachonporn (293126 in chips)
    Seat 5: letatertot (102724 in chips)
    Seat 6: Alex Fowler (75621 in chips)
    Seat 7: hberdeau25 (92829 in chips)
    Seat 8: Fortoviy1979 (66979 in chips)
    Seat 9: Rednas69 (92767 in chips)
    sau6on: posts the ante 625
    MrDorianGray: posts the ante 625
    Krlos47: posts the ante 625
    nachonporn: posts the ante 625
    letatertot: posts the ante 625
    Alex Fowler: posts the ante 625
    hberdeau25: posts the ante 625
    Fortoviy1979: posts the ante 625
    Rednas69: posts the ante 625
    letatertot: posts small blind 2500
    Alex Fowler: posts big blind 5000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Alex Fowler [Kd Th]
    hberdeau25: folds
    Fortoviy1979: folds
    Rednas69: folds
    sau6on: folds
    MrDorianGray: folds
    Krlos47: raises 5000 to 10000
    nachonporn: folds
    letatertot: folds
    Alex Fowler: raises 64996 to 74996 and is all-in
    Krlos47: calls 64996
    *** FLOP *** [Jc 8s 6d]
    *** TURN *** [Jc 8s 6d] [5h]
    *** RIVER *** [Jc 8s 6d 5h] [7d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Alex Fowler: shows [Kd Th] (high card King)
    Krlos47: shows [Ad Qh] (high card Ace)
    Krlos47 collected 158117 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 158117 | Rake 0
    Board [Jc 8s 6d 5h 7d]
    Seat 1: sau6on folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: MrDorianGray folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: Krlos47 showed [Ad Qh] and won (158117) with high card Ace
    Seat 4: nachonporn (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: letatertot (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: Alex Fowler (big blind) showed [Kd Th] and lost with high card King
    Seat 7: hberdeau25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: Fortoviy1979 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: Rednas69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    Obviously I dont want people telling me I made a mistake because he had AQ. My question is whether this is a reasonable play in this situation in the long run.
  2. car_t_a car_t_a is offline

    IA
    United States

    Posts: 396
    Joined: Oct 05

    Nov 19th, 2009 (11/19/2009 8:28pm) in reply to Alex Fowler

    It's reasonable... I try and have an idea of what ranges a player has before making a play like this though. Has the villain been raising a lot of hands? Has the villain been playing position well? These are questions you should ask yourself. As played it wasn't too bad. You ended up being live and just didn't hit.
  3. Aarin Aarin is offline

    Posts: 240
    Joined: Oct 08

    Nov 20th, 2009 (11/20/2009 1:06am) in reply to Alex Fowler

    Reasonable. I damn near say he induced it with the minbet.

    You got trapped. It's ok :)
  4. finewhine finewhine is offline

    Las Vegas, NV
    United States

    Posts: 861
    Joined: Nov 06

    Nov 20th, 2009 (11/20/2009 9:15am) in reply to Alex Fowler

    Why do you say the min bet "stank of weakness?" I would have thought just the opposite and would have been happy to fold. Am I missing something?
  5. Alex Fowler Alex Fowler is offline

    Winton
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 81
    Joined: Oct 08

    Nov 20th, 2009 (11/20/2009 9:36am) in reply to finewhine

    Often I would agree, but at this stage of the tournament I felt it was a cheeky attempt to pick up the blinds very cheapily, which I had seen happen a few times before this too. Maybe its a leak in my game, but surely you can't be folding to a min raise or 2.5x raise from the cutoff with K 10 (in the BB) unless you have noted the player is particularly nitty. I know its not a good hand, but surely a hand in this instance where you have to defend. Maybe he was playing the hand like this to trap, maybe it was trying to excersise pot control (he took a while to call) but even as it landed up i was still only 63-37 behind, hardly drawing dead.
    Thread Starter
  6. jhammond10 jhammond10 is offline

    Netherlands Antilles

    Posts: 501
    Joined: Mar 06

    Nov 20th, 2009 (11/20/2009 10:06am) in reply to Alex Fowler

     
    Originally Posted by Alex Fowler View Post

    Often I would agree, but at this stage of the tournament I felt it was a cheeky attempt to pick up the blinds very cheapily, which I had seen happen a few times before this too. Maybe its a leak in my game, but surely you can't be folding to a min raise or 2.5x raise from the cutoff with K 10 (in the BB) unless you have noted the player is particularly nitty. I know its not a good hand, but surely a hand in this instance where you have to defend. Maybe he was playing the hand like this to trap, maybe it was trying to excersise pot control (he took a while to call) but even as it landed up i was still only 63-37 behind, hardly drawing dead.

    This is going to sound weird, but often players at this level at this stage in the tourney minraise because they don't have a plan. They know that they are supposed to raise, but they are scared to be first in. They don't really want to go broke with it because it's not AA-JJ, but they know that they should raise, so they minraise.

    When you shove them and their plan fails to either steal the blinds or flop their pair if called (which they will happily get it in with), they still will not be able to find a fold. While I agree with you that they are initially trying to steal/play a cheap pot controlish hand, once they do raise they aren't folding very often. When you are running the numbers figuring how good your resteal looks, make sure to not make the folds% very high (although it's obv not 0). I think more often than not this is a good hand and not rags.
  7. Aarin Aarin is offline

    Posts: 240
    Joined: Oct 08

    Nov 20th, 2009 (11/20/2009 11:28pm) in reply to jhammond10

    Good points. I thought it was resonable because I understood his play. Not sure what I would have done here - I'd probably bet hard into him and see what he did/see a flop. I like postflop a lot better than pre.
  8. gamblingfun gamblingfun is offline

    Johnson City, TN
    United States

    Posts: 2,876
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    Nov 21st, 2009 (11/21/2009 1:48am) in reply to Aarin

    I don't like making this move with hands like k10 or a5 ect.. id rather 3bet(maybe even 4bet) with hands like 78

    your are pushing to get a fold, but the times you get called a huge part of their range is going to be kx/ax ect
  9. Alex Fowler Alex Fowler is offline

    Winton
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 81
    Joined: Oct 08

    Nov 21st, 2009 (11/21/2009 7:44am) in reply to Aarin

     
    Originally Posted by Aarin View Post

    Good points. I thought it was resonable because I understood his play. Not sure what I would have done here - I'd probably bet hard into him and see what he did/see a flop. I like postflop a lot better than pre.

    I only had 15 BB's and would have been OOP, I guess calling and check/folding if I miss isnt terrible. It's a bit of a tricky spot i guess, but I was playing to win not to just finish a few places higher and dont really like bleeding chips.
    Thread Starter
  10. gamblingfun gamblingfun is offline

    Johnson City, TN
    United States

    Posts: 2,876
    Joined: Aug 05

    Nov 21st, 2009 (11/21/2009 1:47pm) in reply to Alex Fowler

     
    Originally Posted by Alex Fowler View Post

    I only had 15 BB's and would have been OOP, I guess calling and check/folding if I miss isnt terrible. It's a bit of a tricky spot i guess, but I was playing to win not to just finish a few places higher and dont really like bleeding chips.

    calling check/folding is horrible here imo

    fold/shove are the only two options, I would probably fold
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