<title>Enter text here.</title>*Thread added to Strategy Archives* Backing/Staking

I've had people ask me and I've always wondered...as a backer and a backee, how do you figure out how much makeup is normal/expected? People always say 200 buy ins and u won't go broke, so do you take the highest mtt they are playing x 200, and they shouldn't really go above that? Or do you go off of ABI somehow? Yes, ppl are different and go on 300-500 buy in downswings, but how do you determine if makeup is TOO much for their ABI to where it kind of becomes bad for both parties?

 

Originally Posted by jtj03

I dont think you can put exact number (say 200 ABI) b/c it is more of a comfort level for the backee and backer, if either one are uncomfortable I think the time to get back the makeup is over.

I think there is also something to be said about the level buyin the backee plays.

this. and also the game they are playing. some people can rape one game better than another

 

Originally Posted by hutch1220

this. and also the game they are playing. some people can rape one game better than another

Agree with this, but for a person let's say playing all the smaller buy in majors on 2 major sites, 50rs and under, and all freezeouts under the 215 mark....I mean, you can't really throw out 80k is normal makeup and not know why, so although it won't be exact, I didn't know a way to figure what was reasonable based on payouts to first compared to makeup, etc. You don't want a 30 ABI with 40k makeup when the stuff he plays normally has 8-10k or less to first.

I'm not backed or anything, but I was just on a 180 abi downswing and it was pretty brutal

 

Originally Posted by Mrs. MUPP

i think if i went on a 500 buyin downswing that I would quit poker.

mrs mupp is backed? awesome

In a way yes, but I only play tourneys I have the roll to play, so if I win $50k and I already have enough bankroll to play the game even after the $49k downswing, then I have a nice stack of cash now and can buy three or four diners if I can find that many people I like. The profit is in fact only one dinner difference, but the feeling must be very different.

Analogy - I paid cash for my car. It felt really good when I drove off in it. If I drove off with a huge debt that meant monthly car payments for the next six years, I would not have been as happy. I would have spent a similar amount of money, but it would feel very different. To some people it's probably the same, which is why being backed is good for them, but I can't imagine it unless it was something that allowed me to play drastically higher than I could otherwise afford.

The business of backing is both fascinating and mostly foreign to me.

 

Originally Posted by Fox

Many people don't realize that if you use ABI as your measure you will have larger than expected downswings. It depends on ROI and how wide your typical range of buy-ins is, but the swings can be huge when measured by Average Buy In. If you run bad in the bigger buy-in events for a while, and those events are 3 or 4 times your average, you can turn a fairly typical 50 buy-in drop in to a 150 or 200 buy-in nightmare. Since you will have a lower ROI in the bigger events, this sort of thing will happen more often than you might expect.

I'm not backed so I don't have an opinion on make up, but I can imagine it must suck to win $50k and only get enough money to buy dinner because you owe $49k in make up. Gross.

sick hidden brag for eating $500 meals? lol

 

Originally Posted by Mrs. MUPP

i think if i went on a 500 buyin downswing that I would kill myself

fyp

Seriously 500?
Please god don't ever run that bad

 

Originally Posted by Fox

In a way yes, but I only play tourneys I have the roll to play, so if I win $50k and I already have enough bankroll to play the game even after the $49k downswing, then I have a nice stack of cash now and can buy three or four diners if I can find that many people I like. The profit is in fact only one dinner difference, but the feeling must be very different.

Analogy - I paid cash for my car. It felt really good when I drove off in it. If I drove off with a huge debt that meant monthly car payments for the next six years, I would not have been as happy. I would have spent a similar amount of money, but it would feel very different. To some people it's probably the same, which is why being backed is good for them, but I can't imagine it unless it was something that allowed me to play drastically higher than I could otherwise afford.

The business of backing is both fascinating and mostly foreign to me.

Random convo with another HSMTT regular about this post:

Jonathan: here's another thing
Jonathan: if he continues to play within his roll
Jonathan: after a 50k downswing
Jonathan: I don't know how rich he is
Jonathan: but I'm assuming he'd have to drop down significantly
HSMTTREG: lol ya
HSMTTREG: if he was smart
Jonathan: his chance of hitting a 50k score is diminished significantly
HSMTTREG: its a must
HSMTTREG: exactly
HSMTTREG: thats what he doesnt get

Who cares anyway, Makeup is for the birds

if you went on a 500 buy in downswing i wouldnt call it a downswing id just say that u are a bad player who is learning nothing

 

Originally Posted by toddytheboy

if you went on a 500 buy in downswing i wouldnt call it a downswing id just say that u are a bad player who is learning nothing

Really in fact not true. Gboro for instance, lost on ftp for 5 straight months last year and he is one of the top, if not the best, online. Don't know if this amounts to 500 buy ins but doubtful...just saying. I definitely had a high ROI in the 50 freezes on ftp and now I'm lucky if i can cash one. Ain't great but I ain't pitiful either.

And to JMaster, I was only talking about mtts...I guess I forgot about how frequent the downswings occurred too. Guess the thread is pointless because you got guys like Huni who play everything, get in some makeup, then just ship a huge mtt every other week or so and clear it :p

 

Originally Posted by toddytheboy

if you went on a 500 buy in downswing i wouldnt call it a downswing id just say that u are a bad player who is learning nothing

This is so wrong. I'm not staked but this sentiment and others like it in this thread is just so laughably nearsighted.

By way of example I play mid-stakes at just over an average 30 dollar buy-in. I don't play nearly the volume of the average staked mid-high stakes pro. I won the 42K on tilt about a month ago. Since that win I am down about 200 buy-ins over 3 sites. This is a mere blip on the screen. It isn't even technically a losing period of time for me. Yet according to this genius I am either a bad player or on my way to being a bad player in just a few more weeks.

Jeez people. Playing poker in volume has peaks and valleys, particularly on the higher levels where people are making less mistakes to hand you their chips in a given tournament. Losing 500 buy-ins does not make you a bad player anymore than binking a tourney and winning 500 buy-ins means you got better as a poker player overnight.

Ponderous.

On the topic of swings, what kind of break even stretchs or number of buyins lost or won would be possible in 45 man turbo SNG's, at buyins ranging from $6.50 to $27, and how many total games played would it take to realize these stretchs as in every 20k games you'll experience a 1000 game break even stretch, or whatever it may be. Any insight would be appreciated. Not trying to hijack the thread...

 

Originally Posted by jshark4

i have always found it amazing how much make up some people get themselves into. I mean, what are they doing for money? like, i have heard stories from varies backers of how people have never been out of make up for them throughout thier entire backing arangement. or if they are, its only for a few K profit bc most of thier winnings go to clearing it.

ive always wondered how they live, like if someone gets themselves in 100k+ makeup, what are they doing for money? just living off of savings for years at a time? kinda withered.

I don't really get this line of thinking. Do you think someone consciously chooses to get deep into make up? Like at the beginning of the year someone would say, "alright, I'm probably gonna go on a horrific downswing now and be in 50k+ make up from February through November, then bink an FTOPS to clear it (not trying to get too autobiographical here haha, sigh...), so I need to set aside X amount to live on, etc." Shit happens, and I agree it's hella withered, but it's a reality that some people have to deal with.