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Thoughts on Going Broke in an UnRaised Pot from the BB with a "cooler" flop...deep in a MTT - Strategy discussion

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  1. Cmac Cmac is offline

    Gainesville, FL
    United States

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:52am)

    Hand Example:

    Me 44k in Chips
    DUDE1 - 75 K in chips
    Blinds 800/1600 w/ ante on FTP

    Me - BB - 69o
    DUDE1 - Limp in Middle Pos. w/ 8Tdd

    Flop 6 8 9 two diamonds

    I bet 3200 into about 5000
    DUDE1 Min Raises

    This is the Fifty-Fifty on FTP
    153 Pay
    40 Left
    10k for first

    I shove...

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Now I have a few points I would like advice on:

    1) Can I get away from this, or should I have played his min raise any differently?

    2) Does anyone have any advice or suggestions for these Big Blind, Limped Pot, "Coolers", if you will?

    This is the most frustrating way for me to bust out of a tourney because I feel that it is a scenario you have not initiated, and have little to zero control over, with online stack sizes.

    Any feedback? Thanks.

    Oh PS, please no, Doyle and TJ always say "Don't go broke in an unraised pot."

    CMac
  2. Cmac Cmac is offline

    Gainesville, FL
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:52am) in reply to Cmac

    Don't Go broke in an unraised pot idiot!

    there just to get it out of the way
    Thread Starter
  3. AFink93 AFink93 is offline

    Norwich, CT
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:58am) in reply to Cmac

    I will make an amendment.

    Dont go broke in an unraised pot versus someone who can bust you and who has mini-raised unless you have the nuts.
  4. CeJeH CeJeH is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 2:00am) in reply to AFink93

    i do not recommend going broke in an unraised pot. Im not sure about the math, but id assume its def -ev
     
  5. Sp1ctacular3 Sp1ctacular3 is offline

    Gainesville, FL
    United States

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 2:08am) in reply to Cmac

    Tough spot for sure as this flop nails most limpers. Not sure if what im about to say is "correct" but it is just my two sense. I think in some of these spots its best to get to the turn cheaply then price him out on brick turn and possibly get away on scary turn.

    96 isnt too far ahead of a big draw here such as 97, Td8d, JdTd, etc. Not sure of the math and too lazy to do it right now but i think top and bottom pair is about flipping with these kinds of draws. In addition none of these draws are going to go away with two cards to come.

    In this spot oop and sure of his hand id be inclined to just call his min raise and use the advantage of being first in the pot to shove a safe turn. This way he gets the wrong price to draw with one card to come. If a scary turn hits then you can use your best judgement. Another benefit is if you boat your hand should be well disguised as he probaly wouldnt expect you to just call with two pair.

    In essence its similiar to a stop n go as you have a good read on his hand so why flip when you can decrease his chances of winning by giving him less cards to see.
  6. JINYX JINYX is offline

    Fargo, ND
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 3:02am) in reply to Sp1ctacular3

    ^^ wp sir.

    But instead of shoving the turn if a brick comes why not check? I would say there is about a < 75% that he raises this turn here since you did show weakness post-flop and he still has that huge draw. You get more money this way plus you can see what his line is. If he raises he probably has something like the Td8d, JdTd, or some other kind of combo draw or pair+draw or a possible straight/2 pair hand. If he checks, you are probably way ahead of him here and can easily lead a non-scary river or just check-call the river saving yourself alot of chips and taking alot of the guess work out of this hand.
  7. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 3:19am) in reply to Cmac

    I was going to post something here but I see another person has given much better advice than I could and I have learned a great deal now. Maybe I won't go broke with these kinds of hands as much anymore.
  8. Sp1ctacular3 Sp1ctacular3 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 3:28am) in reply to JINYX

    I like the idea of trapping here but i think there is too much at risk to potentially give a free card. The pot is around 20k and our hero has around 38k behind, i think the best course of action depends on the villian. If he is conservative you have to charge him to draw as he will prob take a free card if you dont. If he is aggressive i think you can argue to weak lead (maybe 10k) to induce a shove. The only thing is I dont like calling off my stack, he has shown strength and shows he will be likely to call a turn shove, so I'd prefer to shove and force him to make the decision. He has chips so he might gamble, which would be a mistake on his part. If he folds hero still gets nice increase to his stack with no showdown.
  9. JINYX JINYX is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 3:52am) in reply to Sp1ctacular3

    Agreed, I think the turn play is def. player dependent, if I did do the check to induce the raise move it would be against an aggressive player and not a conservative one. I agree that calling off your stack is never fun and gives you the decision, which is why I was sort of partial to the check-shove move.

    But wp sir, excellent analysis of this situation, I definately learned something from this thread.
  10. Mr. Blonde Mr. Blonde is offline Supreme Moderator

    Georgetown, DE
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 4:08am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    longest title ever?
     
  11. busto_soon busto_soon is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 6:11am) in reply to Cmac

    Standard line here is to call the minraise and b/f good turns, c/f bad ones. Whatever you do, don't 3bet shove.
    269 3
  12. MarkesanMike MarkesanMike is offline

    Markesan, WI
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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 8:03am) in reply to CeJeH

    I'm pretty sure going broke in any pot is -ev.
  13. cales157 cales157 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 8:55am) in reply to busto_soon

    I think you need to just call the minraise. If turn looks brickish..no diamond...no str8 card helper...then shove !!!

    Only scary thought is.......set !! Tough to lay down the 2 pair..if the turn is a brick though.

    Craig"cales157"
  14. Cmac Cmac is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:33pm) in reply to Sp1ctacular3

    Yea your right. since we were so deep I should have jsut called. The turn was an 8 counterfitting my two pair and giving him trips and the river was a King of diamonds...so I would have been able to get away from it easily after that.... :( oh well

    Cmac
    Thread Starter
  15. Cmac Cmac is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:35pm) in reply to JINYX

    also a great option....I definitely think i should take a turn in future scenarios, then decide from there.....I HATE THESE SPOTS :)
    Thread Starter
  16. BusHansen BusHansen is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2007 (6/22/2007 1:52pm) in reply to cales157

    Even though you're redraw has fewer outs, I like the shove...
  17. Cmac Cmac is offline

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    Jun 26th, 2007 (6/26/2007 4:37am) in reply to busto_soon

    I just had three days in the mountains w/ my boys to do nothing, and i thought about this hand a lot. I think this sums it up the best/shortest
    Thread Starter
  18. d2themfi d2themfi is offline

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    Jun 26th, 2007 (6/26/2007 6:11am) in reply to busto_soon

    unless ur playing opponents who will call a 3bet shove here with 810. lol
     
  19. jackaaron jackaaron is offline

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    Jun 26th, 2007 (6/26/2007 9:50am) in reply to d2themfi

    Doesn't your shove only get called by better hands, and everything else folds? Seems like you might already have the info you need on his raise, but even if you rereraised him, I think you most certainly get the information you need depending on his reaction.
  20. Nole91 Nole91 is offline

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    Jun 26th, 2007 (6/26/2007 4:23pm) in reply to Cmac

    I would think that table image (mainly his) would play a big part in how you proceed on this hand. I would hate to play this hand too passively and lose a great opportunity to chip up versus an overpair or A rag. What hand do I put him on with a mid position limp? 66, 77, 88, 99, A6, A7, A8, A9, less likely but possible TT-AA. If he has donkish tendencies I go broke. If he's a solid player I probably take the turn and then fold. Looking at the T8 sooted mid pos limp, he looks to me to have floppy ears and a bushy tail. Hee haw and GG.
     
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