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First off I think everyone should should be kind to dealers, respect them during the game, and tip when they can....
I have played alot of live poker, a whole lot, and have always been generous with tipping, doing it every time I was pushed a pot. Things in my life, however, have recently changed and I suddenly and unexpectedly have a few extra people to support financially. I play small no limit games in Atlantic City, mostly $1/$2 nlhe, 50+ hours a week and have a great hourly rate considering the small stakes I play. I decided that I need to increase my hourly rate any way I can.
I recently played my first session of poker without tipping. I ended my 12 hour session with a thousand dollar profit. I felt bad about dragging big pots and not tipping. After dragging a few big pots during one particular dealers 30 minutes at the table I tipped her $5 as she was getting tapped out because it was supposedly her first time dealing poker as opposed to table games. I explained to her and the table why I couldn't/hadn't tipped more often. One player at the table started berating me for "making my problems someone else's problem". The next dealer who was just beginning to deal his first hand on the table agreed with that player saying how dealers count on tip money as they get paid less than minimum wage. After trying to defend my position for a minute or two I gave up and let the subject drop.
Playing an aggro $1/$2 game and tipping generously in my estimation could cost me over $10 per hour. I feel that by not tipping I am making an extra few hundred per week and am only taking no more than $50 (at the very most) out of any one dealer's income in a given week. I explained to a few dealers who I have gotten to know through my consistent play that if they ever really needed something they can pull me to the side and I would help them with a small loan (edit: i didn't use the word loan, actually i told them i would give them) when possible. When I explained my situation to them they were supportive and understanding. The dealers who didn't know why I wasn't tipping, many of them didn't hide their disgust for my "cheapness" through their nonverbal communication.
What do other live grinders feel about what I am doing considering my situation? -
Posts: 354
Joined: Mar 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 4:51am) in reply to 4sakenme
throw em two or three bucks as they sit down and just say "I tip by the clock, not by the pot". You'll save a huge chunk of money and just chop $4 off your hourly rate (assuming 2 half hour dealers). The $4 you lose to the dealer will easily be made-up by dropping the "that guy" target at the table.
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Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 4:57am) in reply to 4sakenme
First off, you're an asshole. Tipping is part of the game and thats how dealers make their money so they can take care of THEIR familes. You should be berated by the players at the table because you are nothing but a selfish douchebag IMO. I hope this is a fucking level.
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i had thought about doing this exact thing...
Originally Posted by ndelapiedra
throw em two or three bucks as they sit down and just say "I tip by the clock, not by the pot". You'll save a huge chunk of money and just chop $4 off your hourly rate (assuming 2 half hour dealers). The $4 you lose to the dealer will easily be made-up by dropping the "that guy" target at the table.
however, that still adds up to over $800 a month and that can pay someone that I love's rent as opposed to paying the dealers bar tab or who knows what he/she does with my tip money... also i don't mind being "that guy" at the table, it may get me paid off more often.
in the past when i saw someone else at the table being "cheap" i usually would be more generous to the dealers to compensate and make "that guy" feel like chit making loud comments about taking care of your dealer as I did it. maybe i am not actually taking as much out of the dealers pocket as it appears??
appreciate the honest response ndela and look forward to other thoughtful responses from P5 members.... I'm a long time lurker -
you are entitled to your opinion...
Originally Posted by jcpeace
First off, you're an asshole. Tipping is part of the game and thats how dealers make their money so they can take care of THEIR familes. You should be berated by the players at the table because you are nothing but a selfish douchebag IMO. I hope this is a fucking level.
now how would you feel if i told you the reason i am no longer tipping is because i have taken in the widow and child of a close friend who recently passed away and instanly went from being a bachelor to having a family to support?
am i still an asshole? did you even read the entire post? even wonder why some of the dealers fully supported me not tipping them? i should take food out of people i love's mouth and give it to someone i don't know to do who knows what with and if i don't i'm an asshole? okay, enjoy the karma buddy
fwiw i gave up smoking the good stuff and hitting the clubs before i gave up on tipping.... -
Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 5:21am) in reply to 4sakenme
You did a good thing.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
taken in the widow and child of a close friend who recently passed away
In respects to tipping poker dealers, you are about as big of an ass as can be. Those people rely on tips to get paid. If you can't afford to tip the dealers maybe you shouldn't be playing cards.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
am i still an asshole?
Do you not tip waitresses/bartenders either? They don't fucking serve you for free you know.
GODDAMN THIS TILTS THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!!
I tip dealers every time I win a pot so I should be ok.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
enjoy the karma buddy
Good for youOriginally Posted by 4sakenme
fwiw i gave up smoking the good stuff and hitting the clubs before i gave up on tipping....
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Posts: 2,758
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 5:39am) in reply to jcpeace
Sounds like the dealers are boarderline beggers IMO
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Posts: 896
Joined: Sep 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 5:45am) in reply to 4sakenme
Im from NZ where we are not allowed to tip the dealers, and it works well, dealers get 15-16$ an hour(ish)! For me, I reckon Fuck the random dealer man, you wanna play cards, and you make money playing cards, you need more money, you make more money by not tipping and im all for your system!
Dealers take jobs based on tips to make their hourly rate and that is not consistent income and they know that, when they sign up, there will be people like you, who for whatever reason dont tip! Pay the bills for the people you gotta take care of, Fuck the rest of the world!
However i dont think its right you claiming dealers just use tips for bar tab etc some may well be in the same spot as you, and if they are maybe they should learn how to play cards rather than deal em ; )
Good luck hope all goes well for ya! -
jcpeace... since you took the time to respond, i will respond to you with a few questions
1. how much do you think i make per week playing 1/2 nlhe 50+ hours?
2. how much do you think a dealer makes per week dealing poker?
3. how much more per week do you think i will make by not tipping?
4. how much less do you think any one poker dealer will make by one grinder no longer tipping?
5. in my situation what do you think i might be ordering from any bartender or waitress?
6. at one point you suggested that maybe i shouldn't be playing cards, at this point i would love a job. Do you know of a job where i can start off making more than your answers to #1 plus #2 with no experience that is hiring in my area?
yes i am asking you to make alot of assumptions, thanks in advance if you choose to answer my questions and no worries if you choose to ignore them. -
Posts: 354
Joined: Mar 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 5:58am) in reply to 4sakenme
Look bro your responses make just made your argument a whole lot lighter imo. You now have unilateral power to decide that your needs are greater than the dealers? and break an unspoken contract that a dealers compensation for their job is paid for by the players winning said pots. I've had dealers with herniated disks killing themselves to throw out a few hands before calling it a day, idk what he needed the $$ for, but I bet you a dollar he felt it was pretty fucking important.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
you are entitled to your opinion...
now how would you feel if i told you the reason i am no longer tipping is because i have taken in the widow and child of a close friend who recently passed away and instanly went from being a bachelor to having a family to support? ....I made a decision to increase my expenses
am i still an asshole? did you even read the entire post? even wonder why some of the dealers fully supported me not tipping them? i should take food out of people i love's mouth and give it to someone i don't know to do who knows what with and if i don't i'm an asshole? okay, enjoy the karma buddy Meh, other people don't need 'money' to pay 'rent' and buy 'food'..
fwiw i gave up smoking the good stuff and hitting the clubs before i gave up on tipping....Want a cookie?
Can't have it both boys bud, either your the martyr that took those folks in (at your expense) or your just a dick (shorting dealers). A or B that simple.
I fail to be impresssed. -
thanks for your response....
Originally Posted by poumi554
Im from NZ where we are not allowed to tip the dealers, and it works well, dealers get 15-16$ an hour(ish)! For me, I reckon Fuck the random dealer man, you wanna play cards, and you make money playing cards, you need more money, you make more money by not tipping and im all for your system!
Dealers take jobs based on tips to make their hourly rate and that is not consistent income and they know that, when they sign up, there will be people like you, who for whatever reason dont tip! Pay the bills for the people you gotta take care of, Fuck the rest of the world!
However i dont think its right you claiming dealers just use tips for bar tab etc some may well be in the same spot as you, and if they are maybe they should learn how to play cards rather than deal em ; )
Good luck hope all goes well for ya!
my point with the bar tab thing is i have no idea what they do with my few bucks. i have seen dealers that i tipped generously the next day playing poker on the same table with me and donking off mine and others money because they suck at the game. -
Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 6:01am) in reply to 4sakenme
no ideaOriginally Posted by 4sakenme
1. how much do you think i make per week playing 1/2 nlhe 50+ hours?
A living, as long as they don't deal to a bunch of players who don't tip OBV.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
2. how much do you think a dealer makes per week dealing poker?
You will make less money per week by tipping dealers.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
3. how much more per week do you think i will make by not tipping?
This is relative to non tipping participants vs tipping participants.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
4. how much less do you think any one poker dealer will make by one grinder no longer tipping?
Do you not go to restaurants? Maybe having a beer or two at a local establishment. I dunno.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
5. in my situation what do you think i might be ordering from any bartender or waitress?
You are missing the entire point, I don't know your situation, but I can assure you that it in no way benefits the casino to have a poker room. This is done pretty much as a courtesy for their customers. Believe me, if they took the fucking poker room out completely and put slots in, they would make quite a bit more money from the floorspace, so maybe you can think of tipping dealers as a courtesy, just like the way the casino provides you a place to play and "make a living".Originally Posted by 4sakenme
6. at one point you suggested that maybe i shouldn't be playing cards, at this point i would love a job. Do you know of a job where i can start off making more than your answers to #1 plus #2 with no experience that is hiring in my area?
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wackyJaxon
Admin X
Posts: 12,264
Joined: Apr 06Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 6:04am) in reply to jcpeace
Will be in Barcelona in early Oct for some tourney. Anyone know tipping etiquette in Spain for both cash and tourneys?
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Posts: 634
Joined: Jan 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 6:13am) in reply to wackyJaxon
You have done a good thing for your close friend, however i think the answer is you work harder and put more hours in rather and find an edge that way rather than not tip dealers at all.
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I know what I am doing outside of the poker room is the right decision and i did it without question.
What I am doing in the poker room I am questioning and is the reason I am seeking the advice of the P5s community.
Tipping at the table is not mandatory and doing so takes out over 10% of my poker income. Yet and still I questioned if that % of my hard earned money (and i work hard to make money at the table) is better used spread over a couple dozen unknown people or rather to take care of two people i love very much and who have been hit with unexpected tragedy.
I am feeling much better about my decision given the few responses I have gotten. I will, for the time being, continue to not tip. When my situation changes, i will resume being generous to unknown people who flick cards, count down pots, read boards, and push chips for a living. -
Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 6:19am) in reply to 4sakenme
how do you come up with this figure? So you are saying if you win a $100 pot, then it costs you $10 to tip?Originally Posted by 4sakenme
doing so takes out over 10% of my poker income.
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i am completely aware of this fact. are you aware that the casino rakes an equal amount of money per pot as they pay their dealers per hour?
Originally Posted by jcpeace
You are missing the entire point, I don't know your situation, but I can assure you that it in no way benefits the casino to have a poker room. This is done pretty much as a courtesy for their customers. Believe me, if they took the fucking poker room out completely and put slots in, they would make quite a bit more money from the floorspace, so maybe you can think of tipping dealers as a courtesy, just like the way the casino provides you a place to play and "make a living".
casinos make millions per day yet pay their employees less than minimum wage.
btw, you avoided answering any of my questions directly yet i still feel like you got my point. -
lolz
Originally Posted by jcpeace
how do you come up with this figure? So you are saying if you win a $100 pot, then it costs you $10 to tip?Originally Posted by 4sakenme
doing so takes out over 10% of my poker income.
i just figured out that i need to stop talking to you....
wow, that would be great cause that would mean that i never invested money in a pot that i didn't drag.
last time. 1. how many pots do you drag per hour on average? 2. how much do you tip per hand on average? 3. how much do you make per hour on average? obv only speaking about the few occasions were you might run with the donkeys in a 1/2 game. no need to answer publicly just think about it. is your answer to #3 more than 10 times the sum of #1 multiplied by #2? but please continue to tip. -
Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 6:38am) in reply to 4sakenme
I was married to a woman who works in the casino industry. Unfortunately you are correct, they do pay horrible wages to their employees. This is why these jobs are so tip dependent.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
i am completely aware of this fact. are you aware that the casino rakes an equal amount of money per pot as they pay their dealers per hour?
casinos make millions per day yet pay their employees less than minimum wage.
btw, you avoided answering any of my questions directly yet i still feel like you got my point.
All I'm saying is I really think you should be tipping the dealers while you are winning pots. That's all. Shouldn't be an option really and yes it is a courtesy and obviously not mandatory whatsoever, but neither is tipping a waitress who serves you food at some restaurant, but it's a given that you do, and there are standards/protocols for tipping, as such. That's all.
I really don't need to answer you directly on questions about how much you, the dealers, and the casinos make, as I don't know or really care. But I hope you choose to make the right decision. -
Posts: 371
Joined: Jul 08Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 7:52am) in reply to 4sakenme
you do what you need to do. i can understand that its hard for the dealers relyin on tips but truth be told, no ones holdin a gun to their head makin them stay in that job. they could go get a waitin job that pays minimum wage at worst plus tips, if theyre lucky...although i can understand why no one wants to ditch the job theyre in given the current recession and lack of jobs.
you took in these people and need the extra money so use it for yourself, you dont play cards to pay the dealers you pay cards for you lifestyle and coz its what youre good at. Now im not sayin to not tip what so ever, is it possible to tip less than you do normally? maybe half? maybe only tip the pots that you win (even pots you just win on the river or somethin, i dunno just a suggestion)
i know its a different culture but in the casinos here (England) no one looks down on someone for not tippin, the dealers get paid a decent enough wage so that they dont rely on tips so i cant comment directly on this but i just think the money you won is yours to do with as you like, if people dont like you for it then screw 'em.
I can understand JCPeace's point of view havin his wife work in the industry, however callin OP an "asshole" is a little bit OTT. Doin somethin like OP has done surely makes him more a saint than a sinner? -
Posts: 2,216
Joined: Oct 06Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 7:58am) in reply to jcpeace
Very simply, rake and dealer tips is the cost of business to play live poker. Whatever reason you have in your head for not tipping dealers is irrelevant. If you can't afford to tip in a reasonable manner, nothing ridiculous or extravagant, then you shouldn't be playing poker. That's pretty much it.
I mean you know it's wrong or you wouldn't have even started this thread. -
Posts: 6,506
Joined: Feb 06Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 8:20am) in reply to 4sakenme
You many not be going about it (explaining things to dealers, players, etc.) the right way. You may just have to tell 'em to FO.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
you are entitled to your opinion...
now how would you feel if i told you the reason i am no longer tipping is because i have taken in the widow and child of a close friend who recently passed away and instanly went from being a bachelor to having a family to support?
<h2>James 1:27 (New International Version)</h2>
<sup id="en-NIV-30278">27</sup>Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
I am not a Christian any longer, but I keep many of the principles. Carry on. -
Posts: 1,722
Joined: Mar 06Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 8:35am) in reply to 4sakenme
The reason you tip is because someone has performed a service at least at your expected quality or better. So first off, tipping, in my mind, shouldn't necessarily be based off pots, but on the experience they are providing. A horrible experience, should be none, bad experience low tip (because you never know whats going in their life to cause bad service), good experience average and excellent experience extra tip. Now, you could directly apply this to how well you are running, so you're only tipping when youre taking down nice size pots, but you should also be considering the service they're providing you.
Second thing is that working where you depend on tips is very stressful. Some nights you give great service and get nothing, and some nights you give average or bad service and still get nothing, but sometimes a generous soul sees that you aren't on, and helps you out a little. Not getting tipped can cause you to get very angry or depressed depending on what else is going on, and great tips can do the opposite. I guess just realize these guys are out to make a living too, and realize that your actions do directly affect them in many ways whether your realize it or not. -
Posts: 1,175
Joined: May 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 8:43am) in reply to MadTiger
I think you are well within in your rights to not tip. Your income is as uncertain as the dealer's and it is your money to do with as you will. I won't say that you need the money more than the dealer's do because that may or may not be true but in your current situation I would certainly be holding on to every dime I could.
GL to you sir, you are one of the good guys regardless of what others in this thread may say.
Also, have you considered playing online more? Random number generators never get arsey about not being tipped! :) -
Posts: 11,803
Joined: Jun 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 9:41am) in reply to m4tth3w1
I understand the importance of tips to the dealers, but I think the dealer that chimed in while you were talking to the other player was out of line.
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Posts: 6,506
Joined: Feb 06Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 9:53am) in reply to kellykip
And would have been written up or fired if I was in on that business. Horrible and petty. People who forget they are customer service workers burn me up.Originally Posted by kellykip
I understand the importance of tips to the dealers, but I think the dealer that chimed in while you were talking to the other player was out of line.
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Posts: 143
Joined: Jul 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 10:23am) in reply to 4sakenme
econ 101. If you don't tip, Dealers income decrease, if dealers income decrease, the dealers don't spend alot in local market, if the dealers don't spend a lot in local market, the income in local market decreases, and eventually the invisible hand will come back to pwn you. PLZ TIP FFS
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Posts: 17,437
Joined: Aug 07Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 10:29am) in reply to 4sakenme
im guessing you were born before 1960
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Posts: 354
Joined: Mar 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 10:30am) in reply to 4sakenme
so. fucking. tilting.Originally Posted by 4sakenme
Tipping at the table is not mandatory and doing so takes out over 10% of my poker income. Yet and still I questioned if that % of my hard earned money (and i work hard to make money at the table) is better used spread over a couple dozen unknown people or rather to take care of two people i love very much and who have been hit with unexpected tragedy.
Just fess up and say "I need the money and am going to be stingy and not pay my pro-rated share of the common service (the dealer)". Anything else is irrelevant as tipping is considered the cost of doing business.
Frankly, I hope a player at the table has an even greater need (however he/she may define) and the dealer catches you off guard and ships them one of your pots...because, well, you know they 'really needed it'.
gtfo. I don't know what reaction you expected.
You know the answer now be an adult and make your decision. -
Posts: 143
Joined: Jul 09Sep 13th, 2009 (9/13/2009 10:34am) in reply to ndelapiedra
you don't have to pay tips on online ring games. you should try that OP.
P.S. u r such a scrooge.
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| 2 |  United Kingdom |
102421 | 1855 | 2nd | |
| 3 |  Costa Rica |
89458 | 123 | 4th | |
| 4 |  Australia |
88336 | 994 | 3rd | |
| 5 |  Mexico |
87509 | 184 | 5th |
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