cchampagne, I think ranchgirl is making good points. There's a difference between a belief that the sky is falling or that the world is ending, and the fact that many men are greedy and will steal if given the opportunity. I just don't see how anyone can feel completely at ease in light of this development. It seems pretty naive to think it is just this one instance of cheating, at this one site. Also, the point has been made repeatedly that, had this "ability" been used more stealthily, this situation may never have been exposed.

I am going to repost my post in the same post becasue I think it is important and no one with knowledge responded to it.

<table bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#eeeedd"><td><table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top"> </td><td>Re(4): Todays AP release with some added insight
by Willywoo on 10/21/2007 14:43 </td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td><nobr> </nobr> </td><td><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td bgcolor="#ffffff"></td><td colspan="2"><table celspacing="0" border="0" cellpadding="2"><tbody><tr><td>Chris,

Youmention that you think KGC will learn from this and improve the waycomplaints are handled. This seems to be the biggest issue. While Iam happy the AP claims it will reimburse the players who lost money,what happens if a player is not satisfied with the reimbursemnent asdetermined by AP.

The statement by AP seems to imply that AP isgoing to investigate itself with the help of Gaming Associates. Am Inot correct that if this happened in Vegas the gaming commission wouldbe all over the casino and the cheats, using the law to protect theplayers?

In this case, there is one mention of KGC doing anaudit also, but according to the Regs, KGC could suspend or revoketheir license immediately, thereby preventing the use of servers on thereservation but it has apparently chosen not to do this. Why, I wonder.

Weare apparently in a situation where we must trust the site itself, forthere is no regulating body with any clout. We are dependant onvigilant players to detect fraud in side the gaming company.

I sure hope Poker Stars does not let me down.
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The questions are simple. Why has the KGC not suspended or revoked the license of AP and/or its owner?

Why has the KGC not taken any steps to assure the public that AP can and will operate securely and fairly and why are they allowed to operate before this is accomplished?

Why was it left up to AP to determine what to do with the responsible individuals?
Nat stated in a post yesterday that he thought the KGC was going to suspend the individuals but this did not happen.

Let's just call it what it is. AP, at best, had a security system that was abused by it employee/s and failed to protect its customers. At worst, it is an institutionally corrupt company that is allowed to continue to operate by KGC.

Online Poker players had better realize that they are only trusting the site on which they play. There is no outside help if you get screwed. In this case, AP players were extremely lucky to be handed a smoking gun by an AP insider.

Had that not happened, there would be only denials, no investigation, no refunds, no nothing.

Is this really how players want to handle every situation like this that arises.

This a travesty for the online poker industry, no matter how it turns out.

Ranchgirls observations are right on.

My question for pokerstars is, why doesn't it place itself under the Alderney Gaming Commission and under the jurisdiction of the the British Government?

After this fiasco my trust level in Pokerstars is being diminished as long as they are licensed by KGC.

Anybody care to comment?

EDIT: Alderney may not be under the jurisdiction of the British government. I was told this, but I cannot verify its accuracy.

^^^^^Agreee with these observations 100%, and they are excellent questions. AP should be dead to everyone now, and the bigger issues is what will be the future regulating body of existing sites.

I am out of being one of the pointmen on this whole issue. I hope it gets worked out for all the reasons stated in my previous post. It's as if many people simply can't read. I have spent countless hours on the phone and in chat so I can recap the "official" position and what that really means.

I understand business. I understand greed. I understand denial. I understand processes taking time. I can't understand people making assanine statements that I don't have a clue and then basically restating and rephrasing most of what I said as if it were an original concept.

At no point have I ever stated I trust AP implicitly. At every point I simply listen to what they have to say and try to match that to the facts and what it means. All of your summations and questions are all wrapped into my recommendation to have them pay Nat for his time to go up there to be part of the investigation. Yes, I think they should pay him. His time isn't free.

Do you realize some cumquat even has the balls to be so ignorant as to ask if I own part of AP? Yes, I actually don't live in Louisiana. I'm a fucking Costa Rican playboy. I just run a car dealership as a front for my actual profession which is online casino magnate.

I have a simple question for all of the know better and I'm a patsy conspiracy theorists. Why don't you simply pull your money off AP and go about your life? Your obviously not interested in trying to resolve a problem at all. You just want to bitch and sensationalize. The only people still allowed to bitch are those who are owed money, and at every point I have tried to view the plan of action to be one that funnels towards a community members involvement to help make sure everyone is compensated fairly.

I have already clearly stated in multiple posts that I have pulled my money off of AP and UB. I have already clearly stated that I personally would not play at AP again, no matter the results. Does this sound like a person who is fronting for AP?

Do the world a favor and read to comprehend. At this point I am not taking any more phone calls or making any more recommendations. I can't keep backtracking to explain to people who are debating semantics from AP release 1 that AP release 3 is what matters in moving forward. I can't get back every hour I spend on the phone trying to help others when I have no personal stake in the matter. I especially am not going to waste any more of my life having to refute stupidity that I am trying to whitewash the scandal.

I will let the geniuses of the world who wish to keep beating dead horses and asking questions that have been answered a million times over keep on belaboring points that are nonsensical in resolving the issue.

Again, you have choices.

- Withdraw from AP and never play there again, go about your life like I did.

- Withdraw from everywhere as the sky is falling. I didn't do that. I still believe Tilt and stars are run by honorable people with an interest in running a fair game.

- Play at AP and take your chances - I don't recommend.

- If your owed money push for an oversight person such as Nat to make sure that everyone is repaid over and above the amount owed. You are the only people I really worried about to begin with, save for my UB ambassador friends who are caught up in the stench of the whole scandal even though they had no involvement.

- If your not owed money and don't intend on playing at AP then wait for the process to pan out. I agree 1000% that if full disclosure isn't forthcoming then AP can and should die.

Lastly, when all the wash is aired out I am positive that there will be more evidence of deception and theft. You don't really think someone became a thief overnight do you? As such quit going back to mob mentality every time new evidence comes out. If you don't have enough evidence before you NOW to make your decision about AP then what more do you need?

I keep seeing references to Enron. Throwing your hands in the air and getting exasperated every time a new detail came out about the fraud at Enron solved nothing. Figuring out what your going to do with the criminals, making as much financial restitution as possible, and trying to take some good from the bad in establishing mechanisms to ensure it doesn't happen again should be our focus.

Chris.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#eeeedd><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top> </TD><TD>Re(2): Todays AP release with some added insight
by brsavage on 10/21/2007 18:04 </TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><NOBR> </NOBR></TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD bgColor=#ffffff></TD><TD colSpan=2><TABLE cellPadding=2 border=0 celspacing="0"><TBODY><TR><TD>Dyzalot,

I am not spinning anything at all. I think if you review my posts you will see that I have completely been outspoken and vocal about not accepting the B.S. that had been spewing from AP. The latest response is not from the person who was making the previous releases. It admits guilt and is a promise to clean things up.

Let me repeat I do not see myself playing at AP. I just can't digest supporting them after all of this, but that is a personal decision.

The ONLY reason for my post is to make it clear that we have two choices. We can say fuck AP forever and let them die, or we can give them the opportunity to actually clean it up if we believe their last release.

Personally, I don't care. I care for those involved from this community, I care for those who have ties to AP thru UB, and I care for those who have money tied up there. I don't have a nickel at AP and I am not going to play there in the future, so my interest is that I think online poker would be better if we actually had them clean it up and divulge the extent of the cheating.

I made a rather pointed phone call a little while ago whereby I implored them to hire Nat (N82) to be a part of the investigation. AP simply can't stand any further oversights such as missing reimbursing a player or not finding an account that had cheated. Having Nat involved will give the community a sense of trust where there is most certainly none present at the moment.

The reason I even posted to begin with is to let the community know that the situation was now being addressed from a different level. Previously we had to endure the press releases from the very person who was stealing from us... that isn't the case now.

LET ME MAKE A POINT HERE. They are just now really getting into the investigation. Previously the "investigation" was being spearheaded by the thief, so obviously nothing was being done. It may very well turn out that there is such a level of deceit and theft that we will never be able to forgive them. Having Nat inform us everything that transpired will make us all feel like we were given full disclosure.

I have a belief that when the dust settles we may very well find an incredible amount of cheating/theft was taking place. So much so that the only true way to make it right is to clean house completely. I don't know how feasible or practical this idea is, but I can't foresee any other reasonable way for AP to stay viable if in fact the cheating was more widespread than we are currently aware.

You have to remember the main core of the management at AP were all fraternity buddies. As such we don't yet know how intricate the level of deception was or how great the magnitude of people involved.

I am not asking anyone to take anything AP says at face value, as a matter of fact I don't take it at face value so I encourage you to also not swallow everything carte blanche. What I will state is that as long as we actively think that AP can still be saved we should keep an open line of communication and try to have someone from the community on the inside.

A wise man once said keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer. Right now we need to keep AP close so we can get to the truth, and we have to understand that the long process of cleaning this whole mess up is just beginning. A lot of the information AP had about this cheating came directly from the 2+2 and P5 threads. I am quite sure that they still have much that they haven't yet uncovered and we need to be part of that discovery process. When they divulged to me that they had found several accounts that had cheated that even we didn't know about I took that at face value, a step in the right direction...

We still have a much farther way to go. Hiring Nat to be our investigation pointman will go a great positive next step.

Chris.
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^^^Who is the number 2 man, best friend, man of mystery?

I do not disagree that regulation is needed and wanted by all legitimate players. How that happens remains to be seen. It is going to take someone with a better understanding than I of the game and technology to determine how that is best done. Right now, the only way we can influence the legitamacy of these sites is by where we chose to play.

Cheating has existed in cards and poker from the beginning of the game. Look at what they used to do on Mississippi Riverboats back in the day to fleece players. I'm sure Texas Dolly and Slim could tell plenty of stories about rigged games they came across during their traveling days. Maybe they didn't go back to those games. I, for one, have removed my meager funds from UB and AP and will not play (donate) there again under the current management. I may chose to play at UB again, if they are no longer part of the AP umbrella.

My only point is that it does no good to spout allegations as fact without definite proof. Yes, Jenn Tilly may have has that technology in her ear (maybe, I don't know), but was it used for cheating? If it was used for cheating, where is the proof? If Susie Q can see people's hole cards, where is the proof? If Mark Seif could flip a doom switch on that guy during heads up, where's the proof? If pokerstars RNG is rigged to help certain accounts, where is the proof?

To raise questions or concerns in order to foster discussion and help improve the game we love is a great thing. However, during this entire scandal, you did not see the folks who brought these allegations to light do so before they had the actual proof to back up their allegations. Then again, they are the types of folks who seems to value their credibility.

Mr Green .. in the library with the umm mouse!

i'm not taking any sides here..

But LIVE poker is rigged too, ehh?

Do you have any basis for that conclusion other than she had an earpiece in?

Maybe rich movie stars use that as their mp3 player instead of the lame, stock ipod headphones....

just a thought, i'm all for conspircy theories but i really really doubt that the Harrahs would risk that sort of thing with the amount of money they rake in every year

nothing gets by budmans

BAM!
Sarcasm 9/10 wp

But it's technically not a typo if you do it twice in one post -- it's illiteracy

People can cheat in any forum, live poker, chess, you name it. Someone recently posted a link to a story where a kid had electronics in his cap at a chess tourney. His buddy would use computer programs and feed him the best move. He was caught cause they did a random sweep. If you want, I'll dig up the link and repost it.

http://crunchgear.com/2006/12/28/che...tooth-headset/

Anyhow, you're right, just cause she wore an IFB doesn't mean that there was cheating. She lives with a poker pro, but she did not exhibit enough experience to count chips, and it appears as though she was listening for instructions (to me that is--appeared to me). Is it possible? Well, I doubt Harrahs would have known about it. Even if it was a wireless IFB, there would have been enough wireless mics and stuff that I seriously doubt Harrahs could have performed a sweep. (Geeze - cheats will read this and think ahhhhhaaa - too much wireless waves during poker tourneys to pick stuff up.) Who knows, but in todays world, it is possible. People often try to cheat in other ways than electronics, marked cards, collusion, etc. Use good solid skills and you stand a chance of overcoming collusion, but when the house cheats, we're all in trouble. AP has been caught. I suspect they are not the only ones, but it's not to say I think they all cheat.

No telling how many typos I have. Sorry, but I don't care to take the time to spell check. Tuff stuff spelling police.

Yes, i was steamed at some of the inflammatory whackiness. My strongest recommendation is being taken, and that is to have Nat go to Costa Rica to be involved in the process.

I trust his judgment implicitly.

Chris