So I'm bored, on adderall, playing poker and studying... obv not studying too hard... but I want to see if i could start an interesting conversation about a pretty standard spot early in a tournament. No reads fwiw.

Shove, fold, flat?

Full Tilt Poker Game #11837978649: $30,000 KO Guarantee (87914015), Table 18 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:26:21 ET - 2009/04/23
Seat 1: Shrubbery (4,045)
Seat 2: ImbrokeDonate (3,540)
Seat 3: Jonny_Pockets (4,180)
Seat 4: sergunchik (4,440)
Seat 5: OOPS-LB (4,190)
Seat 6: fmtkb (2,730)
Seat 7: Jestre10 (7,260)
Seat 8: cardsfan04 (2,205)
Seat 9: Mikki31 (3,030)
Mikki31 posts the small blind of 50
Shrubbery posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Shrubbery [8d 8h]
ImbrokeDonate folds
Jonny_Pockets folds
sergunchik folds
OOPS-LB folds
fmtkb raises to 300
Jestre10 folds
cardsfan04 folds
Mikki31 folds
Shrubbery has 15 seconds left to act
Shrubbery

So first, I'm def ruling out flatting because he's not deep enough for us to set mine. So that leaves shoving or folding. If we shove, we are very rarely going to get called by hands we dominate. 77 or 66 MAY call but it would be a pretty bad call by him. So, when we do shove, were more likely than not to be at best a flip when he calls. So therefore, does that make this a fold? It seems kinda tight folding 88 to a cutoff raise but it might not be. So that said, what would you do?

Push>Fold>Flat

I don't like flatting. You're out of position with pocket 8's. You don't have odds to set mine and you rarely win a big pot without hitting a set. Flatting here is bad imo.

i agree with Jesse, I like flatting here. kinda awkward stacks but i think its the best play

fine bret iill just post it here... i think u can flat here more often than ppl think...i def am fine with shoving and i probably do it a decent % of the time (not sure wat %)... it is a big shove tho especially without antes in there...flatting isnt set mining either, you can def c/c or c/shove a lot of flops and play post flop because he isnt going to go crazy with double barreling due to him being reasonably short...so because hes handcuffed postflop u can prob take it away on the flop or turn reasonably easy

 

Originally Posted by AwesomeO

 

Originally Posted by JesseWJames

flatting is only bad if you can't play post flop poker.....

I have to respectfully disagree.

He's not deep enough for us to set mine, were very rarely if ever going to stack him with out hitting a set. We are out of position which also makes the hand harder. I mean what kind of flop are we looking for that doesnt include an 8 in which we can gain a lot of chips out of him or stack him? By flatting, were pretty much just putting ourselves in a sticky situation that more times than not were going to end up bleeding chips. Even if we hit a flop of 247 rainbow, were still going to play our hand very passivly ultimatly resulting in either A) Getting bluffed off our hand B) Bleeding chips or C)winning a very small pot.

Without more information about the player or his tendencies, it would be extremely tough to stack him without thinking were beat on a 247 flop or flops that are simaler.

So essentially, the best situation we are looking for when we flat is a flopped set but we don't have the correct odds to set mine. So, the second best situation is a 247 flop which we will either bleed chips, or win a small pot. I just think flatting puts you in a very sticky situation that will ultimatly end with more times than not, bleeding chips away.

Why won't we stack him? Pot will be 600+ and he has 2400 behind. I'd rather c/shove most flops, lead one overcard, etc then 3bet/call cuz if he jams we are essentially drawing to 2 outs for flipping AK. Or just dump it cuz it's a dumb spot...I don't hate it.

EDIT: sfd jams here so just do what he does and u win.

Shrubbery, while I agree with most of the points you made, I don't think you are looking at the situation correctly. We're not necessarily looking to stack him here always, it's about maximizing value with a hand that rates to be ahead of a villain's range. Shoving could be a good play, but it might be optimal to flat because the range you end up getting it in against, is a range that is ahead of 88. (Although shoving is still +EV because of the times he folds and etc). That said, by flatting, you end up playing the pot vs his entire range, thus maximizing your value. You can gain the value of his cbet from a range of hands he would have just folded to your shove. If the board rolls off in different ways, where based on his tendencies and betting patterns, you can value bet against his entire range, whereas again by shoving you are shutting this out.

I don't think you should always be playing every hand in attempt to stack a person. In doing so, you will be missing out on a lot of value that you could have otherwise gained by simply playing your hand in a manner to maximize its value.

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Shrubbery, while I agree with most of the points you made, I don't think you are looking at the situation correctly. We're not necessarily looking to stack him here always, it's about maximizing value with a hand that rates to be ahead of a villain's range. Shoving could be a good play, but it might be optimal to flat because the range you end up getting it in against, is a range that is ahead of 88. (Although shoving is still +EV because of the times he folds and etc). That said, by flatting, you end up playing the pot vs his entire range, thus maximizing your value. You can gain the value of his cbet from a range of hands he would have just folded to your shove. If the board rolls off in different ways, where based on his tendencies and betting patterns, you can value bet against his entire range, whereas again by shoving you are shutting this out.

I don't think you should always be playing every hand in attempt to stack a person. In doing so, you will be missing out on a lot of value that you could have otherwise gained by simply playing your hand in a manner to maximize its value.

I mean I do agree with this. When we flat however,were pretty much either winning a small pot, or losing a small pot if we dont hit an 8. I mean i know that were not playing every hand to stack somone, but that being said and in this situation, our best result with out hitting an 8, is pretty much winning a small pot. I don't know I mean I never said I HATED flatting, I just said I really didnt like it because imho i think it's just going to put us in sticky situations trying to win a small pot. You also said we can value bet our 8s if the board rolls off in different ways... I just dont know how many situations were going to be value betting our 8s. I mean I guess by flatting, and flatting his cbet on the flop, we could potentially turn our hand into a bluff catcher possibly getting value out of a bluff from him on the river.

Sorry for taking so long to respond, playing this stupid heads up tournament in the third round that i dont know why i registerd for

 

Originally Posted by AwesomeO

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Shrubbery, while I agree with most of the points you made, I don't think you are looking at the situation correctly. We're not necessarily looking to stack him here always, it's about maximizing value with a hand that rates to be ahead of a villain's range. Shoving could be a good play, but it might be optimal to flat because the range you end up getting it in against, is a range that is ahead of 88. (Although shoving is still +EV because of the times he folds and etc). That said, by flatting, you end up playing the pot vs his entire range, thus maximizing your value. You can gain the value of his cbet from a range of hands he would have just folded to your shove. If the board rolls off in different ways, where based on his tendencies and betting patterns, you can value bet against his entire range, whereas again by shoving you are shutting this out.

I don't think you should always be playing every hand in attempt to stack a person. In doing so, you will be missing out on a lot of value that you could have otherwise gained by simply playing your hand in a manner to maximize its value.

I mean I do agree with this. When we flat however,were pretty much either winning a small pot, or losing a small pot if we dont hit an 8. I mean i know that were not playing every hand to stack somone, but that being said and in this situation, our best result with out hitting an 8, is pretty much winning a small pot. I don't know I mean I never said I HATED flatting, I just said I really didnt like it because imho i think it's just going to put us in sticky situations trying to win a small pot. You also said we can value bet our 8s if the board rolls off in different ways... I just dont know how many situations were going to be value betting our 8s. I mean I guess by flatting, and flatting his cbet on the flop, we could potentially turn our hand into a bluff catcher possibly getting value out of a bluff from him on the river.

Sorry for taking so long to respond, playing this stupid heads up tournament in the third round that i dont know why i registerd for

I mean I'm not saying there are going to be a lot of spots to vbet eights but there are definitely opportunities to do this vs a bit weaker opponents with polarized ranges that are easy to decipher. Say you flat and flop comes out T43 you check he bets 375 you call. Turn comes 2 you check, he checks behind. River comes 3, which is a card he is unlikely to ever be bluffing at. You can definitely value bet here, and you'd be amazed at some of the shit people will call you with. Sometimes I get looked up by Ace high, and other hands like 55-77 (of course 99 is in his range too, or any other stronger hand he decided to play passively, where again knowing your opponents helps). He will ofc be vbetting the stronger portion of his range when you check but he would be unlikely to bluff here or bet hands that you beat so it's best to just vbet. Other boards would be like where you make a straight, and other random boards where his range of hands can be relatively well defined allowing you to value bet profitably.

I agree this is certainly not an easy spot to play OOP, but I think skilled players in this situation can manage pretty well vs weak opponents and they might find that they gain more value from their hand by flatting pre than shoving.

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

 

Originally Posted by AwesomeO

 

Originally Posted by Frank1The1Tank

Shrubbery, while I agree with most of the points you made, I don't think you are looking at the situation correctly. We're not necessarily looking to stack him here always, it's about maximizing value with a hand that rates to be ahead of a villain's range. Shoving could be a good play, but it might be optimal to flat because the range you end up getting it in against, is a range that is ahead of 88. (Although shoving is still +EV because of the times he folds and etc). That said, by flatting, you end up playing the pot vs his entire range, thus maximizing your value. You can gain the value of his cbet from a range of hands he would have just folded to your shove. If the board rolls off in different ways, where based on his tendencies and betting patterns, you can value bet against his entire range, whereas again by shoving you are shutting this out.

I don't think you should always be playing every hand in attempt to stack a person. In doing so, you will be missing out on a lot of value that you could have otherwise gained by simply playing your hand in a manner to maximize its value.

I mean I do agree with this. When we flat however,were pretty much either winning a small pot, or losing a small pot if we dont hit an 8. I mean i know that were not playing every hand to stack somone, but that being said and in this situation, our best result with out hitting an 8, is pretty much winning a small pot. I don't know I mean I never said I HATED flatting, I just said I really didnt like it because imho i think it's just going to put us in sticky situations trying to win a small pot. You also said we can value bet our 8s if the board rolls off in different ways... I just dont know how many situations were going to be value betting our 8s. I mean I guess by flatting, and flatting his cbet on the flop, we could potentially turn our hand into a bluff catcher possibly getting value out of a bluff from him on the river.

Sorry for taking so long to respond, playing this stupid heads up tournament in the third round that i dont know why i registerd for

I mean I'm not saying there are going to be a lot of spots to vbet eights but there are definitely opportunities to do this vs a bit weaker opponents with polarized ranges that are easy to decipher. Say you flat and flop comes out T43 you check he bets 375 you call. Turn comes 2 you check, he checks behind. River comes 3, which is a card he is unlikely to ever be bluffing at. You can definitely value bet here, and you'd be amazed at some of the shit people will call you with. Sometimes I get looked up by Ace high, and other hands like 55-77 (of course 99 is in his range too, or any other stronger hand he decided to play passively, where again knowing your opponents helps). He will ofc be vbetting the stronger portion of his range when you check but he would be unlikely to bluff here or bet hands that you beat so it's best to just vbet. Other boards would be like where you make a straight, and other random boards where his range of hands can be relatively well defined allowing you to value bet profitably.

I agree this is certainly not an easy spot to play OOP, but I think skilled players in this situation can manage pretty well vs weak opponents and they might find that they gain more value from their hand by flatting pre than shoving.

jesus these requotes are getting long lol, but yea I can def agree with this.

shove, not close