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Tough preflop spot in $15K KO

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  1. murondubs murondubs is offline

    Tallahassee, FL
    United States

    Posts: 741
    Joined: Sep 07

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 11:46am)

    Been at this table for a little over an hour, everyone has been active but for the most part respected reraises and hasnt gotten out of line.

    Full Tilt Poker Game #15565962919: $15,000 KO Guarantee (113948424), Table 92 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:44:41 ET - 2009/10/25
    Seat 1: simres (502,512)
    Seat 2: olylan69 (292,508)
    Seat 3: leonpoa (153,530)
    Seat 4: Roddo925 (147,026)
    Seat 5: MurOnDubs (158,476)
    Seat 6: stackingchipps (159,604)
    simres antes 600
    olylan69 antes 600
    leonpoa antes 600
    Roddo925 antes 600
    MurOnDubs antes 600
    stackingchipps antes 600
    MurOnDubs posts the small blind of 2,500
    stackingchipps posts the big blind of 5,000
    The button is in seat #4
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MurOnDubs [9s 9c]
    simres folds
    olylan69 folds
    leonpoa raises to 15,000
    Roddo925 folds
    MurOnDubs ???

    If I reraise to 40-40K, I'm already putting in 1/3 of my stack which commits me to the pot. (Plus I know I really dont want to see a flop with 99) So I know if Leonpoa shoves, I know Ive committed myself to call. But with 30BBs, is it better in this spot to go ahead and get it all in preflop to take the thinking out of this situation???

    Or would a better line be to reraise to 40K-45K, and then evaluate the action afterwards? Say I repop there, then Stackingchipps shove and leonpoa shoves.... and I folding here after putting in 1/3 of my stack?

    I just feel an open shove with 30BBs looks hella weak, but at the same time I cant really think of a better line with 99.

    Help me out here guys

    thanks
  2. Goldenad Goldenad is offline

    NJ
    United States

    Posts: 2,669
    Joined: Jun 06

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 11:55am) in reply to murondubs

    i think shoving is fine but might not be optimal? you could always reraise to 45k and ship any flop. im not sure which is better, open shipping or raise/calling.

    oh also obviously call if you raise and he ships

    one thing you cant do is reraise to 40-45k and evaluate the action afterwards. know what youre going to do before hand

    edit

    on second thought i think open shipping is perfectly fine UNLESS you think hes gonna try to 4bet you light. if you open ship and he folds you add 16.5% to your chipstack which is huge. 30bb isnt really THAT much, dont be afraid to get it in aipf
     
  3. rainmanrcp rainmanrcp is offline

    Wilmington, NC
    United States

    Posts: 1,164
    Joined: Aug 09

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 12:14pm) in reply to Goldenad

    3 bet/call, I think you're giving the original raiser too much credit. In six max I think that would be standard since you 3 bet lighter than in 9 seated tournaments.
  4. rfohrenbach rfohrenbach is offline

    Mexico

    Posts: 160
    Joined: Jan 07

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 12:43pm) in reply to murondubs

    Just make it like 39,875 and call a shove. If Stackingchipps cold 4b shoves and Leonpoa shoves, it's probably a close fold. That will rarely happen though.
    57 2
  5. murondubs murondubs is offline

    Tallahassee, FL
    United States

    Posts: 741
    Joined: Sep 07

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 12:52pm) in reply to rfohrenbach

     
    Originally Posted by rfohrenbach View Post

    Just make it like 39,875 and call a shove. If Stackingchipps cold 4b shoves and Leonpoa shoves, it's probably a close fold. That will rarely happen though.

    So then Ive put in 1/3 of my stack to fold. I dunno just seems like a bad line.

    The only "optimal" line i can think of in this spot is to repop to 40K and call Leonpoa's shove, but fold to StackingChipps 4bet??? and just say gg to 40K.

    I cant see shoving pre being optimal here... but with only 15 people left, its the only play that even seems reasonable. I cant see putting in 1/3 of my stack and folding to a 4bet, with the stack sizes the way they are....

    These I guess are my "optimal" choices/plays????

    Full Tilt Poker Game #15565962919: $15,000 KO Guarantee (113948424), Table 92 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:44:41 ET - 2009/10/25
    Seat 1: simres (502,512)
    Seat 2: olylan69 (292,508)
    Seat 3: leonpoa (153,530)
    Seat 4: Roddo925 (147,026)
    Seat 5: MurOnDubs (158,476)
    Seat 6: stackingchipps (159,604)
    simres antes 600
    olylan69 antes 600
    leonpoa antes 600
    Roddo925 antes 600
    MurOnDubs antes 600
    stackingchipps antes 600
    MurOnDubs posts the small blind of 2,500
    stackingchipps posts the big blind of 5,000
    The button is in seat #4
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MurOnDubs [9s 9c]
    simres folds
    olylan69 folds
    leonpoa raises to 15,000
    Roddo925 folds
    MurOnDubs raises to 40,000
    stackingchipps raises to 159,004, and is all in
    leonpoa calls 137,930, and is all in
    MurOnDubs folds (but only if that happens, goodbye 40K) there is no way this is good


    or

    Full Tilt Poker Game #15565962919: $15,000 KO Guarantee (113948424), Table 92 - 2500/5000 Ante 600 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:44:41 ET - 2009/10/25
    Seat 1: simres (502,512)
    Seat 2: olylan69 (292,508)
    Seat 3: leonpoa (153,530)
    Seat 4: Roddo925 (147,026)
    Seat 5: MurOnDubs (158,476)
    Seat 6: stackingchipps (159,604)
    simres antes 600
    olylan69 antes 600
    leonpoa antes 600
    Roddo925 antes 600
    MurOnDubs antes 600
    stackingchipps antes 600
    MurOnDubs posts the small blind of 2,500
    stackingchipps posts the big blind of 5,000
    The button is in seat #4
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MurOnDubs [9s 9c]
    simres folds
    olylan69 folds
    leonpoa raises to 15,000
    Roddo925 folds
    MurOnDubs raises to 40,000
    stackingchipps folds
    leonpoa calls 137,930, and is all in
    MurOnDubs calls (which is fine if StackingChipps folds pre)


    AGH! I just cant figure out if its better to just get it in pre here, cus i really dont wanna see a flop or end up making a tough decision based on whatever action happens after my 3bet.
    Thread Starter
  6. s.l. halper s.l. halper is offline

    Garwood, NJ
    United States

    Posts: 1,017
    Joined: Aug 06

    Oct 25th, 2009 (10/25/2009 1:23pm) in reply to rfohrenbach

     
    Originally Posted by rfohrenbach View Post

    Just make it like 39,875 and call a shove. If Stackingchipps cold 4b shoves and Leonpoa shoves, it's probably a close fold. That will rarely happen though.

    To me, this is the winner. 99 plays well to a ship by the original raiser, but usually gets you squashed by a cold 4 bet shove by Stackingchipps (and a follow-up shove by Leonpoa) unless you have a concrete read that (1) Stacking is squeezing light and (2) Leonpoa is calling light based upon a pre-determined decision to go with the hand. Leon's range could be 88+ATs+. Stacking's typical cold 4 bet shove, even 6 max, would basically be TT+ AQs+ or even tighter. I am not great with calculations but I don't think we can widen their ranges enough for you to have enough equity against this range to make this a call of both all-ins.

    Obv if Stacking shoves and Leonpoa folds, the math gets a whole lot closer. In particular, if you get a read that Stacking is squeezing light (all pps, some suited aces/suited broadway) you can call him and him alone pretty comfortably. But you need to know all of this before you even 3-bet in the first place.

    As for burning the money with a 3-bet fold, meh it happens. You 3-bet mid-range hands sometimes to be able to escape precisely these situations, where a 3-bet shove gets you into a bad situation, such as being all-in 3 way to hands that have you are absolutely crushed.
     
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