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pokerstars Game #15285325957: Tournament #77424677, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2008/02/14 - 15:54:15 (ET)
Table '77424677 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: kik516 (1230 in chips)
Seat 5: DMifflin (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: G-Net24 (4125 in chips)
Seat 7: Sensor6000 (6645 in chips)
kik516: posts the ante 25
DMifflin: posts the ante 25
G-Net24: posts the ante 25
Sensor6000: posts the ante 25
kik516: posts small blind 100
DMifflin: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to G-Net24 [Kc Jc]
G-Net24: raises 400 to 600
Sensor6000: calls 600
kik516: folds
DMifflin: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jh Ad Kh]
G-Net24: bets 600
Sensor6000: raises 3200 to 3800
G-Net24: ??? -
Fold preflop. Why get involved with KJ utg (sooted or otherwise) when a shorty is surely about to bust out? As played, easy fold. It could just be ace-rag or a heart draw behind you, but are you willing to bubble to find out? Fold and you're still 2-1 advantage over the next closest shorty. Unless you don't care about the risk and want to go FTW, then of course go all the way. But I would say securing the cash is most important in a 9-player SNG.
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Any reads would be nice......but without them I am putting all my chips in the middle here. Why because your C-bet was weak and gave him an opening to put pressure on you with his big stack and the bubble. If he out flopped me with Q10 so be it I still have outs. I feel that AK, AA, KK or JJ would re-raise me pre-flop. AJ is possible but unlikely with you holding the other Jack and I feel he would re-raise me pre with it but that one is ify. So without reads I am committed to this hand.
PS- I play for first in these and don't mind bubbling. -
Let's see, you raised preflop and hit your hand. He makes a HUGE over raiase there. I can't see him slow playing AK but it's possible. But it looks lore like a big stack play here. Your 600 bet on the flop looks tremendously weak and that is the main reason I think it is a play.
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Three- Keep in mind this is 4 handed and KJ is a strong hand 4 handed. I disagree with your assement.
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Meh I let this go preflop here. If the stacks were closer to equal I would probably shove, and in fact I like shoving in this spot way better than the 600 raise.
I guess yeah if you're going to play it and you have this exact flop, you have to go all the way. But big stack doesn't want to lose a ton of chips here, so I'm sure they have a hand that has bottom 2 pair in serious danger of getting knocked out. -
Thanks for the reply. I raised pre-flop b/c I want to put pressure on the smaller stacks, I don't want one of them picking up the blinds and if they were to push obv I'm happy calling here with KJ. Big stack was pretty tight (prob shouldv'e mentioned that in OP). My 600 bet on flop is def questionable but I want to let him know that I got a piece w/o comitting myself to go all in if he shoves, any larger bet and I'm stuck imo.
I know my flop bet looks weak so I feel like I'm prob ahead but I also don't think AK or AJ is out of his range. And even if he just has a bare ace I'm not sure if this is the right spot to gamble. It's really a question of playing it safe and cashing or going for the win and if I win this hand I am in a great spot. I don't know, I'm still torn. -
wtf????that is one of the best flops u could ask for obv q10 has u hurting. ak is prolly out of the ? based on preflop play. he is playing ur flop bet which says im scared of that flop. then he is like ill throw my chips out there and take it i say shove it. bottom two he prolly has ace rag and thinks he is good. he raised 5.5x ur raise obv bluff. shove and take down the whole thing
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Whatever you think of my earlier advice, I'm telling you this, this is not a naked bluff represented by the overshove. This is the move of someone who thinks they can take you out and doesn't really care if you have 2 pair or not.
I'd love to see the results. -
Here are the results...
pokerstars Game #15285325957: Tournament #77424677, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em
No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2008/02/14 - 15:54:15 (ET)
Table '77424677 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: kik516 (1230 in chips)
Seat 5: DMifflin (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: G-Net24 (4125 in chips)
Seat 7: Sensor6000 (6645 in chips)
kik516: posts the ante 25
DMifflin: posts the ante 25
G-Net24: posts the ante 25
Sensor6000: posts the ante 25
kik516: posts small blind 100
DMifflin: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to G-Net24 [Kc Jc]
G-Net24: raises 400 to 600
Sensor6000: calls 600
kik516: folds
DMifflin: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jh Ad Kh]
G-Net24: bets 600
Sensor6000: raises 3200 to 3800
G-Net24: calls 2900 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jh Ad Kh] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Jh Ad Kh 3c] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
G-Net24: shows [Kc Jc] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
Sensor6000: shows [Ac Qs] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
Sensor6000 collected 8600 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8600 | Rake 0
Board [Jh Ad Kh 3c Th]
Seat 1: kik516 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: DMifflin (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: G-Net24 showed [Kc Jc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 7: Sensor6000 (button) showed [Ac Qs] and won (8600) with a
straight, Ten to Ace -
I think you played the hand fine. KJs is fine to raise w/ utg w/ a healthy chips stack. I prob just shove the flop but I don't think you made a bad play.
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First: Those saying fold preflop are wrong. You're raising into the two shorties, and obv calling any of their shoves. But you have to raise here 100% of the time.
On the flop, I look at it this way. Yeah, the idea of a sng is to get into the money first, but you've flopped a huge hand. I am almost 100% confident this is a place where it gets shipped in, even against the chip leader. -
Threebanger, I wanted to address this statement as best as possible.
"But I would say securing the cash is most important in a 9-player SNG."
Yes, securing the cash is most important first. And typically you don't want to go after the big stacks. But preflop, I feel you have to raise, more so that you're raising into the two shorties who really can't make a move on you without a big hand.
On the flop, again, typically you don't want to go against the big stack. But this rule doesn't mean NEVER go against the big stack. And 4 handed, hitting 2 pair on this flop, the money has to get in here. -
Maybe I'm confused, maybe I'm just a nit. I just proceed very carefully there, both preflop and postflop. The bottom line is you're OOP against a hand good enough to call a 600 raise on a dangerous board even for 2 pr, against the one player who can put you out.
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<SPAN lang=EN-AU>Bubble play in a S&G only 3 people get paid, for me I am second in chip count well in front of two small stacks, no need to gamble at this point, UTG raisng into 3 players including the big stack is not for me, I would only raise with a premium hands and KJo is not one of those hands.</SPAN>
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There's no way you can fold this hand. The raise with KJs is fine, and at this level the flat call can be anything from Ax to J8. The shove on the flop screams ace and if you double up here this thing is over. This is a situatioin where the reward outways the risk imo cause you've basically won this thing if you win this pot.
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There's some pretty flawed advice in this thread imo. You HAVE to open with a raise there, that's super standard. The only thing I'm not crazy about is the weak flop lead, but you definitely have to get your chips in on that flop.
Securing the cash is not the most important thing. The most important thing is winning. As long as you're playing within your bankroll, losing $6 here by bubbling won't kill you, and you double here you're a big fave to TID. -
I think this is not a tough spot, from a SnG perspective. I definitely let this one go against the chip leader, on the bubble and with two short stacks.
PREFLOP:
The preflop raise (with KJ) is questionable in my opinion, because the chipleader is still to come and a standard play of the big stack would have been to go all-in, knowing that you only can call with KK or AA here (preflop). I would have raised+called an AI if I'm only against the short stacks preflop.
FLOP:
Although you got 2 pair, the flop texture is not too good in my opinion, because flush and straight draws are likely. I call the chip leader here only with the nuts.
Generally with 4 players left and two of them are shorties, I let the shorties doing the action, hoping that one of them is out soon. But I don't want to go broke here at this stage of the game, although your probably a favourite here (not knowing villians hole cards). -
:-(
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I understand this is the bubble and the CL is to our left, but one generalized piece of advice from Jennifear that I adhere to goes along the lines of "if first in, play to win. If not, play to cash." Here the OP has a strong hand for a 4-handed table. Being on the bubble and being first in, he correctly raises. I would agree with the earlier advice that I would call either of the shorter-stacks if they go all-in.
On this flop, I don't see how you can fold two-pair. Sure, the C-bet should be stronger, and quite possibly shoving could be the better play. The button could have easily had a pair under the board, a weaker ace, or without reads who knows what else he's cold-calling with preflop. The flop is scary, but I'd have to think we must believe we are best here.
I'm still getting a feel for these spots myself, but I'd think I'd be going broke on this flop everytime. -
Your raise preflop was just fine. Folding is too weak, and the blinds will fold often enough. If not, at least you have some ammunition against their calling range.
Postflop, don't screw around. You are ahead, and rarely up against AJ, AK, JJ, KK, AA here. The chips you are risking are worth much more than the chips you stand to gain. There's only one plausible move. Shove all in to maximize your fold equity. A call by AQ, or Ax is not one you want, since you are risking nearly 3-1.
As played, call. -
So I don't mind the raise at all, but man what a tough spot to be in post flop. You have to assume that he got his ace when he raises you all in.
So you need to ICM the fact that he has 5 outs on the turn and 8 outs on the river to beat you.
I'm not sure if it's true or not, but I believe that ICM will say that you don't have enough equity in the hand to gamble your tournament equity with such short stacks and such bad money odds on the shove. -
OMG ICM is sick sometimes
so fold and you have 14.9 equity in the thing, call and win and you have 22.45 equity.
So that means your break even point where you are indifferent to calling or folding is 66%
If you read him for an Ace and it would be hard not to, even if you back out AA, AK, AJ so at best he can have AQ or AT for an ace and a draw and include A9 and A8 (I can't see him calling pre with A7-)AQs,ATs-A5s,AQo,ATo-A8o, Then you are still only 65% to win. Granted this only makes it a marginal fold, and surely not a completely obvious one. It's one of those things where bottom two against top pair is very hard to get away from, but it's honestly not nearly as strong as people give it credit for.
Even if you throw KQ and QJs into the mix you're still only 65% to win. So I think two things to do differently would be make a much stronger bet (Even allin maybe) on the flop this forces your opponent to make the mistake.
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